Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #61957
From: Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Crossed Control Stall - REVIEWED
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 10:09:10 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
I agree with Jarrett completely.  Simply looking at the video to establish root cause is overly simplistic.  But to look at it as a learning tool to see the potential result of using wishful thinking on the (skidding) turn to final is, I think, very dramatic.  If I were teaching ground school I wouldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool.  I apologize if I interpreted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar things so many times I guess I'm overly sensitized :-).  As for the comment on the rounded turn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of two evils.  Squaring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of the possible  traffic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt and less forgiving.  I think it depends on the circumstances as to which is safer.
Gary Casey

The problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final is this is your last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:
Morning Gary, I guess my main concern was simply to attribute an accident from a grainy video to a finite control input is probably not sound "cause of crash" assessment technique.  There is simply too many variables here to finitly say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the possibility, but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either. The misalignment of the a/c with it's direction of flight is certainly interesting but does not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA possibility, I've seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to camera angle it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less so. I noticed the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the field at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me to think a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash. 
 
Something else I'd like to mention... I did not intent to project the " I'm so good" personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and training, I'm no 'mind boggling' pilot, nor would I like to project that I am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. In the end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never thought we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game in accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from getting there, I've scared the crap out of myself a couple times and was just lucky enough to live through and learn from it.
 
Btw, I'm w/ you on the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and I find one can spot the possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust] in the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final. 
 
Best Regards
 
Jarrett Johnson
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