X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 10:09:10 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm27-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with SMTP id 5542943 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 May 2012 07:39:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.63; envelope-from=casey.gary@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.52] by nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2012 11:39:18 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.6] by tm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2012 11:39:18 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2012 11:39:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 568282.61789.bm@omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 26986 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2012 11:39:18 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=sdNnP/wmubxmCrz/ol0FbjP+OA/RhhBKs9nMQk5C+I89AYeQO+xls9dPNvh1/6xzctfFBeZjfgs5HYV2XD3USmFHcQPhCCXgTk+YSRW1aL9fSMcSMyJ6bu3r6L7cKaZ2U1ESh9N3edo38sdXLpet8/dy9+tC/rGs12weoyR6J+g=; X-YMail-OSG: nkADm.IVM1kFXEwSCXu8_hZkWpiyPHsPjR61XLWdg.vH1CA PyZaD6xMdseCgr6Q_RwBinBTmHPQdQ9fZp4J5W64T1vOzC3zV.xKBXIJ_lAS eMkHhXqWt6YR8.22un12Gpag8XDBCnyCym_lLU3rGEkEmUd3DXfifAt3pFp1 fPY4NmZ.u7KQVabnsREuzttBCMukXMeHffH8Cq3e25MRNPfvkfEGOBHe7L6B AZT51r2_KsYzL0plNW_r8VzRtp04HjyPyhoSKZ.wQsXcBQ6hdR5N1vHkwK8t VhksUnCrFvU8ZyZbWSm4HGRCBoHVxh4i_caXs0yIG5c8flkQGWvNUiXn7aub nweWfFpD._4gfW4fTrVPISnd3wPNKoq4Bdp7d.7Idj9BhgoVWxP.223ewMit Rv5AWe7QCxMRkT4JsOJEHVduAIn7dpRys0azjofnAFZv7NHPhKuzDkwf8Zgu 7 Received: from [71.218.232.6] by web125603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 May 2012 04:39:18 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.118.349524 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1337081958.22973.YahooMailNeo@web125603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 04:39:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Casey Reply-To: Gary Casey Subject: Re: Crossed Control Stall - REVIEWED X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="933233344-575174921-1337081958=:22973" --933233344-575174921-1337081958=:22973 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Jarrett completely. =A0Simply looking at the video to establis= h root cause is overly simplistic. =A0But to look at it as a learning tool = to see the potential result of using wishful thinking on the (skidding) tur= n to final is, I think, very dramatic. =A0If I were teaching ground school = I wouldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool. =A0I apologize if I inte= rpreted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar things so many time= s I guess I'm overly sensitized :-). =A0As for the comment on the rounded t= urn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of two evils. =A0Squa= ring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of the possible =A0tr= affic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt and less forgiving= . =A0I think it depends on the circumstances as to which is safer.=0AGary C= asey=0A=0AThe problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final is this is= your last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final=0A=0A=0AO= n Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson=A0= =A0wrote:=0A=0AMorning Gary, I guess my main concern was simply to attribut= e an accident from a grainy video to a finite control input is probably not= sound "cause of crash" assessment technique.=A0 There is simply too many v= ariables here to finitly say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not reje= cting the possibility, but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either.= =A0The misalignment of the a/c with it's direction of flight=A0is certainly= interesting but does=A0not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA = possibility, I've seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to= camera angle it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much les= s so. I noticed the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the fi= eld at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me = to think a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash.=A0=0A>= =A0=0A>Something else I'd like to mention... I did not intent to project th= e " I'm so good" personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and tra= ining, I'm no=A0'mind boggling'=A0pilot, nor would I like to project that I= am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. In the= end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never thought we= 'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game in = accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from getting there, I've s= cared the crap out of myself a couple times and was just lucky enough to li= ve through and learn from it.=0A>=A0=0A>Btw, I'm w/ you on the rounded base= /final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and I find one can sp= ot the=A0possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust]=A0in the larger turn = vs a short/tight turn to final.=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Best Regards=0A>=A0=0A>Jarrett= Johnson --933233344-575174921-1337081958=:22973 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with J= arrett completely.  Simply looking at the video to establish root caus= e is overly simplistic.  But to look at it as a learning tool to see t= he potential result of using wishful thinking on the (skidding) turn to fin= al is, I think, very dramatic.  If I were teaching ground school I wou= ldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool.  I apologize if I interp= reted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar things so many times = I guess I'm overly sensitized :-).  As for the comment on the rounded = turn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of two evils.  = Squaring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of the possible &= nbsp;traffic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt and less fo= rgiving.  I think it depends on the circumstances as to which is safer.
Gary Casey

The problem with a rounded turn from downwi= nd to final is this is your last chance to visually clear the traffic possi= bly on final

On Mon, May 14, = 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:
Morning Gary= , I guess my main concern was simply to attribute an accident from a grainy= video to a finite control input is probably not sound "cause of crash" ass= essment technique.  There is simply too many variables here to finitly= say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the possibility, b= ut I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either. The misalignment of= the a/c with it's direction of flight is certainly interesting but do= es not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA possibility, I'v= e seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to camera angle it= looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less so. I noticed = the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the field at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me to thi= nk a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash. 
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin= -left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padd= ing-left: 0px; display: block; line-height: normal; "> 
Something else I'd like to me= ntion... I did not intent to project the " I'm so good" personna. Although = I've some reasonable experiance and training, I'm no 'mind boggling'&n= bsp;pilot, nor would I like to project that I am [if that was the case, ie;= interpereted from my prior comments]. In the end we're all human and we ca= n get into senarios where we never thought we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game in accident avoidance but i= t doesn't always stop us from getting there, I've scared the crap out of my= self a couple times and was just lucky enough to live through and learn fro= m it.
 
Btw, I'm w/ you o= n the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and= I find one can spot the possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust]&= nbsp;in the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final. 
 
Best Regards
 
Jarrett Johnson
--933233344-575174921-1337081958=:22973--