Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #62036
From: Berni Breen <bbreen@cableone.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: 360 still surging
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 08:17:26 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Hi Bill:

No, Lycoming engines do have a fuel return like Continentals do.  As such I am trying to figure an effective method to cool my fuel where it is exposed to the heat following an engine shut down.  It was suggested to me to pick up some cool air and "blast" it on the engine driven fuel pump.  I am in the process of doing that.  I am going to remove the fresh air intake for my cabin heater intake, hooking a scat to it (nipple mounted to the front baffle) and routing the scat back to direct the air to blow on my fuel pump.  Of course the amount of air will be limited to what the prop creates but it will be an improvement on the existing amount of cool air in the fuel pump area which is zero.  Might be an exercise in futility but maybe it will work (?)

Additionally (already reported) I am going to pull vacuum on the fuel system to insure I do not have air being introduced somewhere.

Thanks for you input.

Berni

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012, Berni Breen wrote:
Hi Craig:

I am going to pull vacuum on my fuel system from the servo back to the fuel selector in an attempt to discover any possible air leaks.  

My issue is not a new one nor does it seem to be worsening. 

I agree with your assessment that my engine driven pump may be a contributing factor.

Thanks for your input.

Berni Breen
Sent from my iPhone

On May 22, 2012, at 8:32 AM, Craig Berland <cberland@systems3.net> wrote:

Berni,

I agree with your diagnosis that fuel vapor is causing your problem.

-          I am surprised that the fuel pump on low does not solve the problem.  It did on my IV-P yesterday after breakfast in Arizona.  After a few minutes the low pump was not required.

-          The engine mounted pump does not “suck” fuel very well and any vapor in the line will cause you grief.  The engine mounted pump may be getting worn with time and a rebuild may help….I know I am using a lot of “mays”.

-          Some ideas from me…

o   Make sure the low boost pump is working….turn it on and listen before starting engine.  This is now on my check list.  It should help.

o   If the low boost is running and does not solve the surge problem then turn on the high boost and use the mixture knob to get the same fuel rate. Lean for best idle.

o   If the engine runs smooth on high boost….then look for air seeping into the fuel lines.  Look at every joint between the fuel tank(s) and the engine mounted fuel pump.  If no leaks can be found, I would rebuild the engine mounted pump or even better replace it. Aluminum housings for any kind of positive displacement pump is problematic.  Just one of many issues…. it is possible the bores in your pump are a little too big for the impellers…even though they are within print or service tolerance. Heat and low RPM is the enemy.  The impellers are steel and the housing is aluminum.  The coefficient of thermal expansion is greater for aluminum.  The pump’s ability to pump is therefore reduced at low RPM when it is hot.

-          The one caution I would hope to communicate.  If this issue is something new, it may be the early warning of an engine pump failure.

Craig Berland

IV-P N7VG

 

Many of you guys have offered suggestions to help me remedy my ongoing engine surge challenge.  As a reminder...my fuel injected IO360 displays a very pronounced surge during idle and taxi following a flight and brief shutdown/restart.  The problem never occurs when the engine iis cool.  

 

I have tried suggestions such as ground running the engine at 1700 rpm for extended periods following a restart in an attempt to get some air moving through the cowl but that has resulted in limited success.  So far my only remedy is to let the engine sit for a long enough period to let it cool significantly.  If I do, I have zero issues with surging.

 

I even removed my fuel injector servo and sent it off for overhaul (not an inexpensive undertaking) as another attempt to remedy my problem.  That idea does not address what I firmly believe to be the problem, heat causing fuel vapor lock, but I tried it anyway.  I reinstalled the servo yesterday and test flew.  The plane performed flawlessly as it always does following a first start.  When I returned home and let it sit for 20 minutes, restarted and went to taxi, the surge was just as pronounced as ever.

 

All of my fuel lines are insulated and fire sleeved.  The only exposed lines are the small lines that run up to the spider on the top of the engine. I do not have any fuel leaks.  Turning on my electric fuel pump, while increasing fuel pressure from 20 to 25 psi, does not remedy the surge issue.

 

As posted here before I have taken the active and lifted off several times with this surge issue going on as the surge quits once I apply full throttle.  As several of you have pointed out this is not a safe way to proceed therefore I am again asking for ideas/suggestions from you guys.

 

Many years ago in my drag racing days me and several of my friends would install a cooling can to cool down the fuel and therefore (we believed) helped us produce more power.  We would use a coffee can, insert a coil of copper fuel line in the can, put this contraption in line (fuel line) fill it and fill it with ice prior to a run.  While this is not a practical long term solution, is this the kind of thing I should be doing to prove/disprove my belief that I have a vapor lock issue?

I sincerely appreciate any and all suggestions!

Berni Breen

Lancair 360

 

 




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