Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #52364
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New SAG Theory
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:57:11 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
I must say that Steve's theory makes sense to me and fits my symptoms.  With my turbo engine, running mostly MOGAS but not too infrequent 100LL as well, I MAYBE get 25 hrs max before the first symptoms start to set in and it gradually gets worse after that.  Worse in hot environments, always happens during a high power climb.

Glad to hear we may be able to fix it with colder and/or Iridium plugs (platinum too?)

BTW, I have seen some effects from what could have been detonation.  I have broken 2 side seals.

The turbo surely is making the situation worse, but it sure is performing will right now.

I recently installed the new turbo with the wastegate actuator in place and reported a disappointing 175KTAS at 6500 RPM after a brief flight.  But after some more extensive testing, I can report that I am seeing 190KTAS at 6200 RPM and plenty of throttle left.  So it seems I am not under propped after all.  I am very sure I can do over 200 KTAS now - if I get up the nerve to flog the turbo and engine that hard.  But it comes at a price, with the hot weather here I have had to limit my power a couple times to keep the coolant below 200... which is reassuring that my cooling system is actually not over sized... I just needed to install the turbo to discover it.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

I’ll preface this with the fact that I have never experienced SAG; but it is an interesting subject. I don’t run much 100LL, and I change the plugs at about 40 hours. A couple questions come to mind:

 

Is all of the discussion of the copper core, etc; relevant to a specific brand/part# plug? What heat range?

I use B9EGV racing plugs – do they have a copper core? It’s a fine wire electrode; fairly high heat range number (‘colder’ plug).

 

If the issue is preignition – is that consistent with the large drop in EGT?

 

Al

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 7:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New SAG Theory Discussions of SAG

 

Ed,

 

You take good notes.

 

Just a couple of clarifications:  The decrease in the thermal conductivity of the copper core may be the result of thermal cycling causing development of porosity within the copper.  This is independent of the corrosion going on between the Mn alloy electrode sheath and the insulator.  So there are two essentially independent mechanisms contributing to the heat range change of the spark plug with age. 

 

The development of the porosity within the copper is not particularly affected by the type of fuel whereas the corrosion between the Mn alloy sheath and the insulator is accelerated by the use of 100LL.

 

The cure is still to install new spark plugs. 

 

I have colder spark plugs from Racing Beat that are recommended for prolonged use in high RPM high power applications.  At best, the colder plugs will merely delay the onset of SAG but won't prevent it from happening eventually.  It will be some time before the results of using those plugs will be known.

 

Steve Boese

 

  

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] New SAG Theory Discussions of SAG

In a nut shell, Steve's excellent data gathering (how many of use have access to a scanning electron microscope or spectrum analyzer {:>)) and analysis indicates a possible alternative reason for SAG other than fouling. 

 

 It basically boils down to a theory of pre-ignition based on the deteorating heat removal capacity of the plug. 

 

There is a copper core (the photos showing the two cores) in the center of the ceramic cone which is responsible for conducting 90% of the heat away from the center electrode.  Based on Steve's' electron microscope viewing of two cores (one new and one having been used in a 100LL environment), it appears that the plug using leaded gasoline has corrosion occurring on the boundary between this copper core and the surrounding (hot) elements.  This layer of corrosion hinders heat removal from the plug leading to parts of the plug becoming hot enough to trigger pre-ignition.

 

This SAG tends to happened at high power settings and reducing power tends to make it go away (for a while).  Steve's theory is that the plug encounters max heat and temperature at high power settings and that reducing the power permits the plug to cool off enough for the pre-ignition to go away (for a while).

 

So we now have two theories - one is the fouled plug and one of the overheated plug causing SAG.  Preignition generally leads to detonation which does not appear to be happening (at least no one is finding the typical detonation damage to the rotary engine).  A possible reason is the quenching effect of the less than optimum shape of the rotary combustion space may tend to delay or prevent the onset of detonation damage that one would expect from continuous preignition caused by a too hot plug.

 

I believe Steve intends to see if he can find some colder plugs (the ones that conduct heat better) and see if that extends the time between SAG.  Currently I find that roughly 25-30 hours is about the max I can get using 100LL before SAG sets in, whereas Tracy and others have well over 150 hours using unleaded Mogas.  So if the colder plugs extend the time before SAG, I would say that pretty much would suggest Steve's theory is correct - if Not, then perhaps the fouled Plug theory still has merit or it could be some other phenomena happening.

 

Steve, my apologies if I did not present your case as well as you could

 

Ed

 

Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

 

.

 

 

 

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:59 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Discussions of SAG

 

I understand that there was a presentation on SAG at the meeting.  Can someone go over the alternative theory with the ones of us that were not in attendance?  It looked like someone had a scanning electron microscope photo that they were showing!  Wow!  Are we getting sophisticated or what!!  Was this an explanation of the cause, or ideas for prevention, both??

 

Bill B

 





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