Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #20717
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: V slot failure mode and Who knew?
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:01:23 -0400
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Message
The Hurley seals I installed in 2001 (150 hrs) were brand new.  The are now very worn, there is a groove underneath the rubbing service the entire length of each seal - so deep on some of the seals that a ridge of metal has been pushed up along the top of the groove.  This is where the seal rubs against the top edge of the seal slot.   I recall that one of the supposed benefits of these seals is that the were easier on rotor housings - (because they were softer?).  Based on the amount of wear after 150 hours I think an apex seal failure (in my engine) was inevitable before 300 hrs (just speculation based on amount of seal wear).
 
My personal opinion is a combination of softer seals and worn apex grooves was my problem.  If you have nice vertical apex slots then there is almost no bending force on the seal and the seal slides up and down in the slot supported by the wall.   If the apex groove is wider at the top (for whatever reason), there is a bending motion imparted to the seal - the bottom of the slot is still at specs holding the bottom of the apex seal in one plane, however when the combustion gases push on the seal, the top portion of the seal is no longer supported (by the top walls of the slot) in the same plane as the bottom. This imparts a bend motion on the seal - being brittle it can not take much bending motion before breaking - and all else follows.
 
On the other hand if you have a stronger seal and one which withstand some bending motion.   IF that is part of the failure process then the stronger seals will (in my opinion) almost certainly delay the failure. 
 
To answer your question about having a "handle on where those? things had been", not certain exactly which "things" you are referring to.  My engine was  a JSpec engine imported from Japan - it was a turbo engine - who knows how easily or hard it had been driven. However, since I used 9.7:1 high compression rotors, we know they came out of a 89-91 NA 13B - I have no idea what shape that engine was in. 
 
 NO, I did not check the apex seal slots - I certainly would have -  had I known then, what I know now {:>).  They "looked" fine and I was unaware of the "V" slot problem. 
 
In fact, I dare say most of the subscribers (Lynn and a few others excepted) to this list were unaware ot the "V" slot problem until my "incident".  So if there is any good that has come out of the "incident", I think it is many more folks will check out the apex seal slot much more carefully before putting them in an engine.  Either you  are comfortably within specs, or you go the 3mm route or buy new rotors (expensive I agree - but your butt is worth it).
Perhaps, as I have stated, it was just a combination of factors (all converging at the same time) that caused my failure - might not happen 1 time out 100.  It certainly has not done anything but convince me that the rotary engine can fail (as can all things mechanical) - BUT, even then it will get you back safely - what more can you ask of an mechanical thing?
 
Ed A
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rotor and seal wear was Re: All Parts have arrived, Whew!

Rusty and Ed got what - 100 hrs or so?  Rusty's seals were worn, the slots wallowed out beyond specs, Ed's slots wallowed out beyond specs, etc.  Granted  both engines were built from cores, but didn't both have a pretty good handle on "where those things had been"?   
 
Hi Jim,
 
Just need to correct a few facts.  My engine was all new.  No used parts at all.  The apex slots in the rotors are still just like new, but the Hurley apex seal was considerably worn on the sides.  Maybe the slots were too tight?  
 
Rusty
 
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