X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 07:26:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtp92.ord1c.emailsrvr.com ([108.166.43.92] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 7065845 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:01:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=108.166.43.92; envelope-from=jeff@formaspace.com Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp20.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4D4A080A5F for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:00:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: from smtp192.mex05.mlsrvr.com (unknown [184.106.31.85]) by smtp20.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 3C52680A4A for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ORD2MBX02F.mex05.mlsrvr.com ([fe80::92e2:baff:fe11:e744]) by ORD2HUB31.mex05.mlsrvr.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 18:00:34 -0500 From: Jeff Turk X-Original-To: "'lml@lancaironline.net'" Subject: RE: [LML] LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k Thread-Topic: RE: [LML] LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k Thread-Index: Ac+w8npT5fFQoHPkRT6P9ROzJjoz8w== X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 23:00:33 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <01E9FA3C1E82F04B849753FBF0D21B60577B60@ORD2MBX02F.mex05.mlsrvr.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.226.154.122] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_01E9FA3C1E82F04B849753FBF0D21B60577B60ORD2MBX02Fmex05ml_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_01E9FA3C1E82F04B849753FBF0D21B60577B60ORD2MBX02Fmex05ml_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, A couple of months ago I wrote an e-mail stating that I was looking for a g= reat IV-P for less than $250k. Within minutes, I was overwhelmed by dozens = of e-mails, many of which were very generous with thoughts, advice, and off= ers of time to educate me about the market. Thank you so much to the more t= han a dozen of you who called or sent me e-mails with offers to call me in = the hours after my e-mail went out. I am truly overwhelmed by your generosi= ty and hope to meet all of you one day, and am sorry I could not respond to= everyone in a timely manner. Many others called and e-mailed offering to sell me your planes, and others= wrote just to ask what I learned and to post the most interesting feedback= so they could learn from it as well. This is an effort to follow up on tho= se latter requests! Here are some of your collective suggestions in terms of the plane itself: 1. A majority of you advised not purchasing a IV-P built by anyone ot= her than a professional shop (and by professional, they mean a shop that ha= s built a number of Lancairs) due to the difficulty of detecting some poten= tial issues. A minority dissented, saying there were great builds by first = time builders too. 2. Several people said to look for stock engines by Barrett. 3. I was warned to inspect the following: overall cosmetics as a prox= y for build quality, paint, wing skins, shape of wings, mating of wings and= control systems, anti-static grounding, leaky hydraulics, gear that aren't= square, customized engines or fuel systems, chewed up gearboxes, heavy pla= nes, binding of controls, poor ventilation, weak A/C, pressurization proble= ms in doors and outflow valves, one wing heavy, old nose gear, shimmying no= se gear, lack of rudder trim, lack of any electric trim, tires more than tw= o years old (especially in hot climates), older serial numbers, tail heavy = planes, nose heavy planes, planes built by low wage labor, planes built by = a variety of specific individuals, specific planes with all kinds of colorf= ul individual histories, poor electrical installations, strike finders, pla= nes that sat for a while and therefore might have some hydraulic issues, an= d I obtained several winglet opinions. I was told to test the radios 100 mi= les out due to potential antenna problems. I forgot to do this in flight te= sting. I should have carried a checklist with me when I went to check out p= lanes. 4. Almost every person I spoke with was cool with a gear up landing o= n a runway. More than half of the IV-Ps for sale right now have had some s= ort of prop strike, but no one seems too bothered by that. Of course, with = an engine like the TSIO-550, I would not purchase a plane that had so much = as a hint of a sudden stop without a full tear down. Others may differ, but= that's where I draw the line. What I learned about the purchase and training process: 5. I was strongly advised to hire Brad Simmons, Performance One, or T= im Wilson for the pre-buy, and I did hire Tim. 6. Almost everyone I spoke to was pretty passionate about LOBO traini= ng. I intended to take that training even before it was imposed on me by th= e insurer. 7. It was suggested I take a class by GAMI to learn more about the TS= IO-550. 8. It was suggested I purchase a book by Bob Knockoll. I have not yet= located this book, but apparently it has something to do with electrical s= ystems. Multiple people spoke of the need for a standby alternator, standby= battery, and appropriate wiring to withstand a huge short. What I learned about costs. Please do not shoot the messenger - I am just = sharing what I have learned for the benefit of everyone who asked! 9. The insurance is astronomical! The best quote I got for liability = and hull is $11,885 and requires 50 HOURS of dual! At 100 hours a year, the= insurance cost alone is $118.85 an hour. And unfortunately, I can't blame = the insurers. There were two hull losses last week alone. At least one was = apparently a plane with a Performance engine in it, which appears to have s= uffered a catastrophic engine failure. The other was descending IFR, at nig= ht, though 3000' at over 270 knots if I recall correctly. I'm horrified for= the friends and family of those who have perished and really frustrated by= the circumstances of these crashes. 10. I have been repeatedly warned that the plane is lot more expensive th= an I think it will be, but no one would tell me how much. So I made a sprea= dsheet. I came out to almost $44,000 a year for 110 hours. That's $400 an h= our for those who are counting. That includes $11,885 of insurance, which i= s 27% of the total projected cost. To be honest, that's a whole lot more th= an the $250/hr. I expected and comes close to putting the Lancair in the co= st category of much larger aircraft. 11. No one could really tell me exactly what they thought any given plane= was worth and reminded me that the market is very illiquid. A couple of pe= ople did say that in the current market, there is no piston-powered IV-P wo= rth more than $300K. Several planes in 10/10 condition have traded for unde= r $200K. The least expensive deal I had credible information about was $140= K. --Jeff --_000_01E9FA3C1E82F04B849753FBF0D21B60577B60ORD2MBX02Fmex05ml_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello All,

 

A couple of months ago I wrote an e-mail stating tha= t I was looking for a great IV-P for less than $250k. Within minutes, I was= overwhelmed by dozens of e-mails, many of which were very generous with th= oughts, advice, and offers of time to educate me about the market. Thank you so much to the more than a dozen= of you who called or sent me e-mails with offers to call me in the hours a= fter my e-mail went out. I am truly overwhelmed by your generosity and hope= to meet all of you one day, and am sorry I could not respond to everyone in a timely manner.

 

Many others called and e-mailed offering to sell me = your planes, and others wrote just to ask what I learned and to post the mo= st interesting feedback so they could learn from it as well. This is an eff= ort to follow up on those latter requests!

 

 

Here are some of your collective suggestions in term= s of the plane itself:

 

1.     &= nbsp; A majority of you advised not purchasing a IV-P bui= lt by anyone other than a professional shop (and by professional, they mean= a shop that has built a number of Lancairs) due to the difficulty of detec= ting some potential issues. A minority dissented, saying there were great builds by first time builders too.=

2.     &= nbsp; Several people said to look for stock engines by Ba= rrett.

3.     &= nbsp; I was warned to inspect the following: overall cosm= etics as a proxy for build quality, paint, wing skins, shape of wings, mati= ng of wings and control systems, anti-static grounding, leaky hydraulics, g= ear that aren’t square, customized engines or fuel systems, chewed up gearboxes, heavy planes, binding of con= trols, poor ventilation, weak A/C, pressurization problems in doors and out= flow valves, one wing heavy, old nose gear, shimmying nose gear, lack of ru= dder trim, lack of any electric trim, tires more than two years old (especially in hot climates), older se= rial numbers, tail heavy planes, nose heavy planes, planes built by low wag= e labor, planes built by a variety of specific individuals, specific planes= with all kinds of colorful individual histories, poor electrical installations, strike finders, planes that sat = for a while and therefore might have some hydraulic issues, and I obtained = several winglet opinions. I was told to test the radios 100 miles out due t= o potential antenna problems. I forgot to do this in flight testing. I should have carried a checklist wit= h me when I went to check out planes.

4.     &= nbsp; Almost every person I spoke with was cool with a ge= ar up landing on a runway.  More than half of the IV-Ps for sale right= now have had some sort of prop strike, but no one seems too bothered by th= at. Of course, with an engine like the TSIO-550, I would not purchase a plane that had so much as a hint of a sud= den stop without a full tear down. Others may differ, but that’s wher= e I draw the line.

 

What I learned about the purchase and training proce= ss:

 

5.     &= nbsp; I was strongly advised to hire Brad Simmons, Perfor= mance One, or Tim Wilson for the pre-buy, and I did hire Tim.

6.     &= nbsp; Almost everyone I spoke to was pretty passionate ab= out LOBO training. I intended to take that training even before it was impo= sed on me by the insurer.

7.     &= nbsp; It was suggested I take a class by GAMI to learn mo= re about the TSIO-550.

8.     &= nbsp; It was suggested I purchase a book by Bob Knockoll.= I have not yet located this book, but apparently it has something to do wi= th electrical systems. Multiple people spoke of the need for a standby alte= rnator, standby battery, and appropriate wiring to withstand a huge short.

 

What I learned about costs.  Please do not s= hoot the messenger – I am just sharing what I have learned for the benefit of everyo= ne who asked!

 

9.     &= nbsp; The insurance is astronomical! The best quote I got= for liability and hull is $11,885 and requires 50 HOURS of dual! At 100 ho= urs a year, the insurance cost alone is $118.85 an hour. And unfortunately,= I can’t blame the insurers. There were two hull losses last week alone. At least one was apparently a plane = with a Performance engine in it, which appears to have suffered a catastrop= hic engine failure. The other was descending IFR, at night, though 3000R= 17; at over 270 knots if I recall correctly. I’m horrified for the friends and family of those who have perished = and really frustrated by the circumstances of these crashes.

10.   I have been repeatedly warned that the plane is lot= more expensive than I think it will be, but no one would tell me how much.= So I made a spreadsheet. I came out to almost $44,000 a year for 110 hours= . That’s $400 an hour for those who are counting. That includes $11,885 of insurance, which is 27% of the = total projected cost. To be honest, that’s a whole lot more than the = $250/hr. I expected and comes close to putting the Lancair in the cost cate= gory of much larger aircraft.

11.   No one could really tell me exactly what they thoug= ht any given plane was worth and reminded me that the market is very illiqu= id. A couple of people did say that in the current market, there is no pist= on-powered IV-P worth more than $300K. Several planes in 10/10 condition have traded for under $200K. The = least expensive deal I had credible information about was $140K.=

 

 

--Jeff

 

 

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