X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:18:08 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com ([67.222.39.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with SMTP id 7064480 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:06:55 -0400 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.222.39.168; envelope-from=danny@n107sd.com Received: (qmail 3523 invoked by uid 0); 5 Aug 2014 12:06:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2014 12:06:15 -0000 Received: from host295.hostmonster.com ([66.147.240.95]) by cmgw4 with id b6681o00q24Brde0166B7j; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 12:06:14 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=OcELUHjY c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=itwRhR3rBUS+Z7KggeyZgQ==:117 a=itwRhR3rBUS+Z7KggeyZgQ==:17 a=DsvgjBjRAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=iD6HA6vKMkUA:10 a=7yC0mnl5jEAA:10 a=eEO7c7Cxe3gA:10 a=KNfte85PAAAA:8 a=8wUq0fdrpYsA:10 a=t4cfc2oITy8A:10 a=69EAbJreAAAA:8 a=FpUc38bfv_MwInUGcmEA:9 a=1fnscHfYoc8dC9xf:21 a=TvgQjcsZDLD0cnnM:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=EfJqPEOeqlMA:10 a=M6Kqmjw4cQ4A:10 a=wIr_5KhluC8WlkvevlkA:9 a=UEojfnWifKnhobp6:21 a=dbwE_ks_ptf97nEY:21 a=rFnrEcXlrIih3K7h:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 Received: from [174.232.0.104] (port=29321 helo=[10.235.21.17]) by host295.hostmonster.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XEdVH-0000DF-0F; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 06:06:07 -0600 References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4AA52467-A933-4D00-AC5D-7CCA7A404E24 X-Original-Message-Id: <25D22110-8E81-4F6F-A919-D6FB7695A0A6@n107sd.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D257) From: Danny Subject: Re: [LML] A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:06:02 -0400 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Identified-User: {3234:host295.hostmonster.com:wunderwe:n107sd.com} {sentby:smtp auth 174.232.0.104 authed with danny@n107sd.com} --Apple-Mail-4AA52467-A933-4D00-AC5D-7CCA7A404E24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow, turn & run away fast! Sent from my iPhone. Danny > On Aug 5, 2014, at 7:23 AM, PETER WILLIAMS w= rote: >=20 > A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS >=20 >=20 > I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the seller wou= ld consider a trade as part of the transaction. >=20 >=20 > Over a number of weeks, I negotiated with Cathy who turned me over to her =E2= =80=9Cmechanic,=E2=80=9D Bob, with whom I who would be negotiating. >=20 >=20 > Bob and I ultimately came to a deal, my Cessna 340 plus cash, where I woul= d deliver the plane to western Missouri, retain the Garmin 530 from the Cess= na and get the Lancair. >=20 >=20 > I said I would send a deposit, bob said no deposit needed. =E2=80=9C his w= ord was golden=E2=80=9D > I found this slightly odd; but concluded that I was the =E2=80=9Cbuyer=E2=80= =9D and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held up= when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are a seller a= nd they need to sell. >=20 >=20 > My first step: > I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob. > He pulled the plugs and did a =E2=80=9Cleak down test=E2=80=9D which showe= d good compression OK > he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them and one c= ylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes.=20 > Not a great surprise, based on the fact of how few hours on the engine and= the length of time since manufacture. >=20 >=20 > remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we are mos= t familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The other is number o= f years since overhaul. Rust and general deterioration of gaskets and materi= als being the reason. (usually 12 years) >=20 >=20 > Second step > I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a pre-buy and fl= y the plane. > The report came back that, it was an excellent build and flew as one would= expect a Lancair 4P to fly. > It did have squawks;=20 >=20 >=20 > when I got there > It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And, bob, refer= ring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane would have to be fir= st transferred to himself from cathy and then to myself. >=20 >=20 > Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said that th= at would never work. > Here's what you have to do: > crack the throttle > mixture off > high boost pump > quick count of three with the mixture in, pull it out immediately > turn key and will start and slowly feed in the mixture to keep it running > ODD? > After that explanation, I checked the exhaust stacks and found them to be v= ery black sooty. > WHY? > I do not know. >=20 >=20 > I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the air. It was= one more matter of concern. Remember, I am about to strap myself into this t= hing and fly 1,000 miles. >=20 >=20 > We proceeded > to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair; as the final step, I started to r= emove the Garmin 530 from the panel, bob said =E2=80=9Cstop, didn't you get m= y email three days ago=E2=80=9D he said that the wording suggested that the G= armin was no longer included in the transaction. I said =E2=80=9Cthat was no= t our original deal=E2=80=9D (the one that was sealed with =E2=80=9Cmy word i= s my bond=E2=80=9D=20 >=20 >=20 > it was ultimately suggested that for $5,000, I could =E2=80=9Ckeep=E2=80=9D= the Garmin. >=20 >=20 > I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over $4,000 at thi= s point between the inspection and fuel to get there, based on =E2=80=9Cmy w= ord is my bond=E2=80=9DAnd it would be another 180 gallons of fuel to get ho= me. >=20 >=20 > So ultimately, I said no to the extra $5,000.=20 > in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my limit an= d I was concerned that there could be other issues that were known to bob th= at he was not telling. I have no proof of such a thing, but when you no long= er trust someone, you have to assume there may be other reasons. >=20 >=20 > what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the builder of the p= lane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008. >=20 >=20 > and as the finally, the plane was going back into Bob's name prior to the s= ale to me?? =20 >=20 >=20 > it felt a little like Africa;=20 > a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class, first world= facility and then turns it over to the local government, who just use it. W= hen some portion of the property fail, it stays failed until less and less w= orks. >=20 >=20 > Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe, but.... >=20 >=20 > HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds=E2=80=94solution;do nothing > AOA, did not stop talking=E2=80=94solution: disconnect > STEP, kept breaking cables=E2=80=94solution: remove > GAS GAUGE, display failed=E2=80=94solution: ignore > RUST IN CYLINDERS=E2=80=94solution: ignore >=20 >=20 > this airplane is a project in my opinion, I would expect to spend the next= 100 hours sorting the plane out; troubleshooting the existing issues and de= aling with the new ones that will inevitably arrive. > Oh yea, do a top overhaul now. >=20 >=20 > I agree that these people, whoever the real owner is, have had a hard time= . Over $600,000 spent on the build. > They have been trying to sell it since 2008. > Someone does a $20,000 annual, for what? On a airplane with 67 hours. > Someone agrees to sell the plane for them, doesn't; and then refuses to gi= ve the plane back. The law suit costs $100,000 to get the plane back, with n= o recovery of legal fees >=20 >=20 > and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this Lancair h= ad 18 hours since new. > (I believe that the repair was first class) >=20 >=20 > ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional $5,000. but= more than that, I felt that I could not trust these people at all and what o= ther unknown awaited me as I flew the plane away. >=20 >=20 > In a way I expected some kind of =E2=80=9Choldup=E2=80=9D because I was tr= aveling so far; what I did not count on the deal being changed at the very l= ast moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good and bad was shif= ting towards bad. > And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And if you h= ave no faith in the seller, do you want to die finding out what you do not k= now. >=20 >=20 > In my opinion, The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take it to i= mmediately to a repair location. Put $20,000 on the table and start fixing i= t. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR conditions to work out the= bugs in the systems and the new surprises that one would expect in a new bu= ild. >=20 >=20 > One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the potential damag= e to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul, checking for internal rust t= hat would necessitate a full teardown of the engine >=20 >=20 > peter --Apple-Mail-4AA52467-A933-4D00-AC5D-7CCA7A404E24 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow, turn & run away fast!

= Sent from my iPhone.
Danny

On Aug 5, 2014, at 7:23 A= M, PETER WILLIAMS <peterp= awaviation@hotmail.com> wrote:

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS


I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction.


Over a number of weeks, I negotiated with Cathy who turned me over to her =E2=80=9Cmechanic,=E2=80=9D Bob, with whom I who would be negotiating.


Bob and I ultimately came to a deal, my Cessna 340 plus cash, where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri, retain the Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair.


I said I would send a deposit, bob said no deposit needed. =E2=80=9C his word was golden=E2=80=9D
I found this slightly odd; but concluded that I was the =E2=80=9Cbuyer=E2=80= =9D and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are a seller and they need to sell.


My first step:
I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob.
He pulled the plugs and did a =E2=80=9Cleak down test=E2=80=9D which showed good compression OK
he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes.=20
Not a great surprise, based on the fact of how few hours on the engine and the length of time since manufacture.


remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually 12 years)


Second step
I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a pre-buy and fly the plane.
The report came back that, it was an excellent build and flew as one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly.
It did have squawks;=20


when I got there
It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And, bob, referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to myself.


Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said that that would never work.
Here's what you have to do:
crack the throttle
mixture off
high boost pump
quick count of three with the mixture in, pull it out immediately
turn key and will start and slowly feed in the mixture to keep it running
ODD?
After that explanation, I checked the exhaust stacks and found them to be very black sooty.
WHY?
I do not know.


I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember, I am about to strap myself into this thing and fly 1,000 miles.


We proceeded
to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair; as the final step, I started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel, bob said =E2=80=9Cstop, didn't you get my email three days ago=E2=80=9D he said that the wording suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction. I said =E2=80=9Cthat was not our original deal=E2=80=9D (the one that was se= aled with =E2=80=9Cmy word is my bond=E2=80=9D=20


it was ultimately suggested that for $5,000, I could =E2=80=9Ckeep=E2=80=9D the Garmin.


I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over $4,000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there, based on =E2=80=9Cmy word is my bond=E2=80=9DAnd it would be another 180 ga= llons of fuel to get home.


So ultimately, I said no to the extra $5,000.
in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a thing, but when you no longer trust someone, you have to assume there may be other reasons.


what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008.


and as the finally, the plane was going back into Bob's name prior to the sale to me??=20


it felt a little like Africa;=20
a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class, first world facility and then turns it over to the local government, who just use it. When some portion of the property fail, it stays failed until less and less works.


Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe, but....


HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds=E2=80=94solution;do nothing
= AOA, did not stop talking=E2=80=94solution: disconnect
STEP, kept breaking cables=E2=80=94solution: remove
GAS GAUGE, display failed=E2=80=94solution: ignore
RUST IN CYLINDERS=E2=80=94solution: ignore


this airplane is a project in my opinion, I would expect to spend the next 100 hours sorting the plane out; troubleshooting the existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably arrive.
Oh yea, do a top overhaul now.


I agree that these people, whoever the real owner is, have had a hard time. Over $600,000 spent on the build.
They have been trying to sell it since 2008.
Someone does a $20,000 annual, for what? On a airplane with 67 hours.
Someone agrees to sell the plane for them, doesn't; and then refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100,000 to get the plane back, with no recovery of legal fees


and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this Lancair had 18 hours since new.
(I believe that the repair was first class)


ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional $5,000. but more than that, I felt that I could not trust these people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane away.


In a way I expected some kind of =E2=80=9Choldup=E2=80=9D because I was traveling so far; what I did not count on the deal being changed at the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good and bad was shifting towards bad.
And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And if you have no faith in the seller, do you want to die finding out what you do not know.


In my opinion, The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20,000 on the table and start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new surprises that one would expect in a new build.


One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul, checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of the engine


peter
= --Apple-Mail-4AA52467-A933-4D00-AC5D-7CCA7A404E24--