X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 07:23:21 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from COL004-OMC3S9.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 7064265 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 05:41:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.34.147; envelope-from=peterpawaviation@hotmail.com Received: from COL129-W79 ([65.55.34.135]) by COL004-OMC3S9.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22701); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 02:40:33 -0700 X-TMN: [r9o5NtTdbhYZqVJscGyd08r/PHB9otEH] X-Originating-Email: [peterpawaviation@hotmail.com] X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: peterpawaviation@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_02bd3951-d306-4002-acec-46144617b17e_" From: PETER WILLIAMS X-Original-To: "lml@lancaironline.net" Subject: A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 05:40:33 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2014 09:40:33.0666 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DA85E20:01CFB091] --_02bd3951-d306-4002-acec-46144617b17e_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS =0A= =0A= =0A= I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the=0A= seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction. =0A= =0A= =0A= Over a number of weeks=2C I negotiated with Cathy who turned me=0A= over to her =93mechanic=2C=94 Bob=2C with whom I who would be=0A= negotiating. =0A= =0A= =0A= Bob and I ultimately came to a deal=2C my Cessna 340 plus cash=2C=0A= where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri=2C retain the=0A= Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair. =0A= =0A= =0A= I said I would send a deposit=2C bob said no deposit needed. =93 his=0A= word was golden=94 =0A= I found this slightly odd=3B but concluded that I was the =93buyer=94=0A= and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held=0A= up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are=0A= a seller and they need to sell. =0A= =0A= =0A= My first step: =0A= I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob. =0A= He pulled the plugs and did a =93leak down test=94 which showed=0A= good compression OK =0A= he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them=0A= and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes. =0A= =0A= Not a great surprise=2C based on the fact of how few hours on the=0A= engine and the length of time since manufacture. =0A= =0A= =0A= remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we=0A= are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The=0A= other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general=0A= deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually 12=0A= years) =0A= =0A= =0A= Second step =0A= I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a=0A= pre-buy and fly the plane. =0A= The report came back that=2C it was an excellent build and flew as=0A= one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly. =0A= It did have squawks=3B =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= when I got there =0A= It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And=2C=0A= bob=2C referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane=0A= would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to=0A= myself. =0A= =0A= =0A= Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said=0A= that that would never work. =0A= Here's what you have to do: =0A= crack the throttle =0A= mixture off =0A= high boost pump =0A= quick count of three with the mixture in=2C=0A= pull it out immediately =0A= turn key and will start and slowly feed in=0A= the mixture to keep it running =0A= ODD? =0A= After that explanation=2C I checked the exhaust stacks and found=0A= them to be very black sooty. =0A= WHY? =0A= I do not know. =0A= =0A= =0A= I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the=0A= air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember=2C I am about to strap=0A= myself into this thing and fly 1=2C000 miles. =0A= =0A= =0A= We proceeded =0A= to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair=3B as the final step=2C I=0A= started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel=2C bob said =93stop=2C=0A= didn't you get my email three days ago=94 he said that the wording=0A= suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction.=0A= I said =93that was not our original deal=94 (the one that was sealed=0A= with =93my word is my bond=94 =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= it was ultimately suggested that for $5=2C000=2C I could =93keep=94=0A= the Garmin. =0A= =0A= =0A= I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over=0A= $4=2C000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there=2C=0A= based on =93my word is my bond=94And it would be another 180 gallons=0A= of fuel to get home. =0A= =0A= =0A= So ultimately=2C I said no to the extra $5=2C000. =0A= =0A= in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my=0A= limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were=0A= known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a=0A= thing=2C but when you no longer trust someone=2C you have to assume there= =0A= may be other reasons. =0A= =0A= =0A= what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the=0A= builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008. =0A= =0A= =0A= and as the finally=2C the plane was going back into Bob's name prior=0A= to the sale to me?? =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= it felt a little like Africa=3B =0A= =0A= a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class=2C=0A= first world facility and then turns it over to the local government=2C=0A= who just use it. When some portion of the property fail=2C it stays=0A= failed until less and less works. =0A= =0A= =0A= Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe=2C but.... =0A= =0A= =0A= HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds=97solution=3Bdo nothing =0A= AOA=2C did not stop talking=97solution: disconnect =0A= STEP=2C kept breaking cables=97solution: remove =0A= GAS GAUGE=2C display failed=97solution: ignore =0A= RUST IN CYLINDERS=97solution: ignore =0A= =0A= =0A= this airplane is a project in my opinion=2C I would expect to spend=0A= the next 100 hours sorting the plane out=3B troubleshooting the=0A= existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably=0A= arrive. =0A= Oh yea=2C do a top overhaul now. =0A= =0A= =0A= I agree that these people=2C whoever the real owner is=2C have had a=0A= hard time. Over $600=2C000 spent on the build. =0A= They have been trying to sell it since 2008. =0A= Someone does a $20=2C000 annual=2C for what? On a airplane with 67=0A= hours. =0A= Someone agrees to sell the plane for them=2C doesn't=3B and then=0A= refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100=2C000 to get=0A= the plane back=2C with no recovery of legal fees =0A= =0A= =0A= and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this=0A= Lancair had 18 hours since new. =0A= (I believe that the repair was first class) =0A= =0A= =0A= ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional=0A= $5=2C000. but more than that=2C I felt that I could not trust these=0A= people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane=0A= away. =0A= =0A= =0A= In a way I expected some kind of =93holdup=94 because I was=0A= traveling so far=3B what I did not count on the deal being changed at=0A= the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good=0A= and bad was shifting towards bad. =0A= And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And=0A= if you have no faith in the seller=2C do you want to die finding out=0A= what you do not know. =0A= =0A= =0A= In my opinion=2C The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take=0A= it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20=2C000 on the table and=0A= start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR=0A= conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new surprises=0A= that one would expect in a new build. =0A= =0A= =0A= One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the=0A= potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul=2C=0A= checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of=0A= the engine =0A= =0A= =0A= peter =0A= = --_02bd3951-d306-4002-acec-46144617b17e_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A= A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the=0A= seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Over a number of weeks=2C I negotiated with Cathy who turned me=0A= over to her =93mechanic=2C=94 Bob=2C with whom I who would be=0A= negotiating.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Bob and I ultimately came to a deal=2C my Cessna 340 plus cash=2C=0A= where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri=2C retain the=0A= Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= I said I would send a deposit=2C bob said no deposit needed. =93 his=0A= word was golden=94
=0A= I found this slightly odd=3B but concluded that I was the =93buyer=94=0A= and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held=0A= up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are=0A= a seller and they need to sell.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= My first step:
=0A= I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob.
=0A= He pulled the plugs and did a =93leak down test=94 which showed=0A= good compression OK
=0A= he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them=0A= and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes. =0A=
=0A= Not a great surprise=2C based on the fact of how few hours on the=0A= engine and the length of time since manufacture.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we=0A= are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The=0A= other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general=0A= deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually 12=0A= years)
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Second step
=0A= I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a=0A= pre-buy and fly the plane.
=0A= The report came back that=2C it was an excellent build and flew as=0A= one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly.
=0A= It did have squawks=3B =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= when I got there
=0A= It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And=2C=0A= bob=2C referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane=0A= would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to=0A= myself.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said=0A= that that would never work.
=0A= Here's what you have to do:
=0A= crack the throttle
=0A= mixture off
=0A= high boost pump
=0A= quick count of three with the mixture in=2C=0A= pull it out immediately
=0A= turn key and will start and slowly feed in=0A= the mixture to keep it running
=0A= ODD?
=0A= After that explanation=2C I checked the exhaust stacks and found=0A= them to be very black sooty.
=0A= WHY?
=0A= I do not know.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the=0A= air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember=2C I am about to strap=0A= myself into this thing and fly 1=2C000 miles.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= We proceeded
=0A= to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair=3B as the final step=2C I=0A= started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel=2C bob said =93stop=2C=0A= didn't you get my email three days ago=94 he said that the wording=0A= suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction.=0A= I said =93that was not our original deal=94 (the one that was sealed=0A= with =93my word is my bond=94 =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= it was ultimately suggested that for $5=2C000=2C I could =93keep=94=0A= the Garmin.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over=0A= $4=2C000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there=2C=0A= based on =93my word is my bond=94And it would be another 180 gallons=0A= of fuel to get home.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= So ultimately=2C I said no to the extra $5=2C000. =0A=
=0A= in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my=0A= limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were=0A= known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a=0A= thing=2C but when you no longer trust someone=2C you have to assume there= =0A= may be other reasons.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the=0A= builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= and as the finally=2C the plane was going back into Bob's name prior=0A= to the sale to me?? =0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= it felt a little like Africa=3B =0A=
=0A= a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class=2C=0A= first world facility and then turns it over to the local government=2C=0A= who just use it. When some portion of the property fail=2C it stays=0A= failed until less and less works.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe=2C but....
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds=97solution=3Bdo nothing
=0A= AOA=2C did not stop talking=97solution: disconnect
=0A= STEP=2C kept breaking cables=97solution: remove
=0A= GAS GAUGE=2C display failed=97solution: ignore
=0A= RUST IN CYLINDERS=97solution: ignore
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= this airplane is a project in my opinion=2C I would expect to spend=0A= the next 100 hours sorting the plane out=3B troubleshooting the=0A= existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably=0A= arrive.
=0A= Oh yea=2C do a top overhaul now.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= I agree that these people=2C whoever the real owner is=2C have had a=0A= hard time. Over $600=2C000 spent on the build.
=0A= They have been trying to sell it since 2008.
=0A= Someone does a $20=2C000 annual=2C for what? On a airplane with 67=0A= hours.
=0A= Someone agrees to sell the plane for them=2C doesn't=3B and then=0A= refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100=2C000 to get=0A= the plane back=2C with no recovery of legal fees
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this=0A= Lancair had 18 hours since new.
=0A= (I believe that the repair was first class)
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional=0A= $5=2C000. but more than that=2C I felt that I could not trust these=0A= people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane=0A= away.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= In a way I expected some kind of =93holdup=94 because I was=0A= traveling so far=3B what I did not count on the deal being changed at=0A= the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good=0A= and bad was shifting towards bad.
=0A= And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And=0A= if you have no faith in the seller=2C do you want to die finding out=0A= what you do not know.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= In my opinion=2C The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take=0A= it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20=2C000 on the table and=0A= start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR=0A= conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new surprises=0A= that one would expect in a new build.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the=0A= potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul=2C=0A= checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of=0A= the engine
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= peter
=0A=
= --_02bd3951-d306-4002-acec-46144617b17e_--