X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:38:50 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from c.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.111.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6934973 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 05:12:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.142.111.80; envelope-from=superdmp@sonic.net Received: from Homebrew (107-209-212-146.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [107.209.212.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s5F9BuEn001911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 02:11:57 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <575F26260E094637B4E6C6FBF450A56D@Homebrew> Reply-To: "David Powell" From: "David Powell" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: BUYING A LANCAIR 4, 4P X-Original-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 02:07:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05B4_01CF883E.971995E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 X-Sonic-ID: C;AvA+GW304xG5rrdcoNQ8UQ== M;wJerGW304xG5rrdcoNQ8UQ== This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05B4_01CF883E.971995E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99d like to echo the suggestion for training before you try to = take it out on your own. Lancair has designed some INCREDIBLE airframes, = but they are a demanding and less than forgiving design. I can=E2=80=99t = stress enough the importance of having a seasoned Lancair instructor = help you transition to your new plane. I myself own a 360 (I=E2=80=99m = on a much lower flying/fun budget). The time I had in training was the = best money I have ever spent on flight training (and that includes my = original private pilot training).=20 When I bought mine, I found a Lancair owning flight instructor and we = flew it back over a VFR cross country together. In my case, I got lucky = that some faceless insurance underwriter required duel before I = solo=E2=80=99d in it, as I had no idea just how sensitive these = airplanes were. I would venture to guess that 11% figure mentioned by a = previous response would correlate directly to close to 11% of new = Lancair pilots trying to fly them solo for their trip home after = purchasing. Another suggestion I might make, take a ride with a fellow 4P owner in = their plane (or planes if you can find more than one) to get a feel for = what kind of plane you are buying. My instructor (thankfully) was able = to get me a flight in another Lancair owner=E2=80=99s plane before we = went for the pick-up of mine. This early hands on made that first cross = country a lot more fun (mostly because I already knew just how sensitive = the controls were). Hope that helps you, they are sure a lot of fun to fly! Dave From: Ronald Stevens=20 Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 3:40 PM To: Lancair Mailing List=20 Subject: [LML] Re: BUYING A LANCAIR 4, 4P Those few inches make a difference, at least that is what my wife always = told me ;) =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Jeff Edwards Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 11:10 AM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: BUYING A LANCAIR 4, 4P =20 The P210 is not much wider Sent from my iPad On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:34 AM, "Ronald Stevens" wrote: About buying a Lancair 4-p =20 Well, if you can find it already done, then things add up very = quickly=E2=80=A6.but if you find one that has most things you love = like=E2=80=A6.now there is where you can actually save time and lots of = money. =20 I have my plane for sale (loaded) with Garmins (G3x, GTN750 etc), BRS = parachute, AM-SAFE seatbelts, 4g impact seats, Wing cuffs etc etc =20 Why am I selling the plane, that I really like, well=E2=80=A6my son = outgrew the plane. He is a 250 pounds, 6=E2=80=993ft, wide shouldered = guy and still growing (playing football and heavy weightlifting). =20 So you can understand my frustration selling the plane. Now I am = looking into a p210 Silver Eagle=E2=80=A6.just because I need the space = side-by-side. =20 And yes this plane is real fun, I have over 250 hours in it, and loved = every flight with it. =20 =3D=3D Ronald =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = PETER WILLIAMS Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 7:58 AM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] BUYING A LANCAIR 4, 4P =20 HI THERE WHAT TO BUY AND WHAT TO LOOK FOR --ENGINE 1. A low time engine is not necessarily LOW TIME many of the Lancair for sale now were built 12 or more years ago the engine may have 150 hours on it but it has timed out for = years.(CHECK WITH CONTINENTAL) B. does this matter? YES. these engines have flat tappets and = they tend to spall over time if not used regularly. even regularly can be a = problem C how am i sure. well, i have a 4P that had an 1996 install and = a 2000 tear down and i have just had to have a tear down due to a damaged cam = (big money D there is a 4P that i looked at in Florida with 475 hours total = time (sold for $175k)=20 , now has a fresh overhaul with 45 hours more and is up for = resale at over $300k E there is a $5,000 AD on the starter drive that may not be = done AIRFRAME 1. No reasonable amount of money will correct a bad airframe, have = it checked by one of the Lancair experts (i suggest other than Lancair, as their love of the moment = is the Evolution and not the 4P) 2 Pressurization. that is afterall what makes the 4P special. = will it achieve full 5psi?, which should give you a 3,800=20 cabin at 17,500. a good bit of time can be spent solving = pressurization, (not just in a Lancair) 3. Landing gear' lots of potential for issues, Again you need a = Lancair expert a. nose strut check ($65.00 part that can cost $20,000 = to fix if it fails) b. accumulator function c. gear movement 4 Weight and balance should be rechecked AVIONICS 1 Chelton screens are an orphans and i would not suggest = maintaining them ; but. the recent Garmen and Dynon systems are so inexpensive = that you can end up with a superior system for=20 $10,000-12,000 range 2 Maybe a Garmin 530 or MX 20 (200) is enough for you; it is for = me and i fly to VERY LOW IFR in the northeast FLIGHT TESTING get one of the pro's to test fly before you buy; you will know = at least what you are up against. EVERY ONE FLIES DIFFERENTLY my 4P when stalled rotates 110 degrees off either wing. i have = not stalled the plane, this was test pilot report FLIGHT TRAINING VITAL> VITAL 11% of Lancair's flown home by NON-trained buyers crashes in = some fashion. this includes 20,000 hour professional pilots I have over 200 hours in type in a year and half and am = beginning to "own" the plane... beginning ! at 50 hours i felt i could = fly it and at=20 100 hours we became friends remember there is NO general aviation airplane that is as = demanding as a Lancair 4.=20 INSURANCE =20 A before you buy, check that you can get insurance. if = you are financing; hull insurance will be required B My quote for the first year was $14,000 for 200k hull = and $1m liability only 100k per seat and a $10,000 deductible at the time i had 3,600 hours IFR & Multy and 2,700 = hour twin time C recently a 500 hour pilot bought a 4P and never flew it = as he could not get insurance coverage. he sold the plane for $160,000 D many owners go naked on hull and some Turbine pilots go = naked on Liability as well=20 E there is only one market for Lancair insurance F last year i had Liability only on a 4P and the cost was = $3,200 a year; at the same time i had Liability only on a Lancair 4 and = the price was $576 a year. Same pilot; same time frame, same = coverage. INSURANCE COMPANIES DO NOT HAVE A GOOD HISTORY = ON THE LANCAIR 4P PRICES In the last two years, i know of three 4P's that have sold = in the $160-175K. and i believe that the prices are not firm. a 4P = turbine just sold =20 $300,000 and the seller said that he had only one offer in = two years. there was a short sale of a 4P turbine that sold for $250,000 I do not see that the bottom has been reached for prices = and i do not believe that the pricing reflects the quality of the build. = some are good and some are bad. you might be better off buying at or below $200k and = allocating the rest of the money to fix what ain't prefect i may have missed some points, but this gives you a start good luck peter =20 ------=_NextPart_000_05B4_01CF883E.971995E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=E2=80=99d like to echo the = suggestion for training=20 before you try to take it out on your own. Lancair has designed some = INCREDIBLE=20 airframes, but they are a demanding and less than forgiving design. I = can=E2=80=99t=20 stress enough the importance of having a seasoned Lancair instructor = help you=20 transition to your new plane. I myself own a 360 (I=E2=80=99m on a much = lower flying/fun=20 budget). The time I had in training was the best money I have ever spent = on=20 flight training (and that includes my original private pilot training).=20
 
When I bought mine, I found a Lancair = owning=20 flight instructor and we flew it back over a VFR cross country together. = In my=20 case, I got lucky that some faceless insurance underwriter required duel = before=20 I solo=E2=80=99d in it, as I had no idea just how sensitive these = airplanes were. I=20 would venture to guess that 11% figure mentioned by a previous response = would=20 correlate directly to close to 11% of new Lancair pilots trying to fly = them solo=20 for their trip home after purchasing.
 
Another suggestion I might make, take = a ride with=20 a fellow 4P owner in their plane (or planes if you can find more than = one) to=20 get a feel for what kind of plane you are buying. My instructor = (thankfully) was=20 able to get me a flight in another Lancair owner=E2=80=99s plane before = we went for the=20 pick-up of mine. This early hands on made that first cross country a lot = more=20 fun (mostly because I already knew just how sensitive the controls=20 were).
 
Hope that helps you, they are sure a = lot of fun=20 to fly!
 
Dave
 
 
 
 
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 3:40 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: BUYING A LANCAIR 4, 4P
 

Those=20 few inches make a difference, at least that is what my wife always told = me=20 ;)

 

From: Lancair = Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff=20 Edwards
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 11:10 AM
To: = Lancair=20 Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: BUYING A LANCAIR 4,=20 4P

 

The P210 is not much wider

Sent from my=20 iPad


On Jun 12, 2014, = at 6:34 AM,=20 "Ronald Stevens" <ronald@sdc.com>=20 wrote:

About=20 buying a Lancair 4-p

 

Well,=20 if you can find it already done, then things add up very = quickly=E2=80=A6.but if you=20 find one that has most things you love like=E2=80=A6.now there is = where you can=20 actually save time and lots of money.

 

I=20 have my plane for sale (loaded) with Garmins (G3x, GTN750 etc), BRS = parachute,=20 AM-SAFE seatbelts, 4g impact seats, Wing cuffs etc = etc

 

Why=20 am I selling the plane, that I really like, well=E2=80=A6my son = outgrew the plane. He=20 is a 250 pounds, 6=E2=80=993ft, wide shouldered guy and still growing = (playing=20 football and heavy weightlifting).

 

So=20 you can understand my frustration selling the plane. Now I am looking = into a=20 p210 Silver Eagle=E2=80=A6.just because I need the space=20 side-by-side.

 

And=20 yes this plane is real fun, I have over 250 hours in it, and loved = every=20 flight with it.

 

=3D=3D=20 Ronald

 

From: = Lancair Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20 On Behalf Of PETER WILLIAMS
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, = 2014=20 7:58 AM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] = BUYING A=20 LANCAIR 4, 4P

 

HI THERE

WHAT TO = BUY AND=20 WHAT TO LOOK FOR

--ENGINE

1. A     = low time=20 engine is not necessarily LOW TIME
     many of = the=20 Lancair for sale now were built 12 or more years=20 ago
     the engine may have 150 hours on it = but it=20 has timed out for years.(CHECK WITH=20 CONTINENTAL)
     B. does this matter? YES. = these=20 engines have flat tappets and they tend to=20 spall
          over = time if=20 not used regularly. even regularly can be a=20 problem
     C  how am i sure. well, i = have a 4P=20 that had an 1996 install and a 2000 tear=20 down
          and i = have just=20 had to have a tear down due to a damaged cam (big=20 money
     D  there is a 4P that i looked = at in=20 Florida with 475 hours total time (sold for $175k)=20
          , now has a = fresh=20 overhaul with 45 hours more and  is up for resale at over=20 $300k
     E   there is a $5,000 AD = on the=20 starter drive that may not be = done

AIRFRAME

1.   =20 No reasonable amount of money will correct a bad airframe, have it = checked by=20 one of the Lancair=20 experts
          (i = suggest=20 other than Lancair, as their love of the moment is the Evolution and = not the=20 4P)

2        Pressurization. = that is=20 afterall what makes the 4P special. will it achieve full 5psi?, which = should=20 give you a 3,800=20
           cabin = at=20 17,500. a good bit of time can be spent solving pressurization, (not = just in a=20 Lancair)

3.     Landing gear' lots of = potential for=20 issues, Again you need a Lancair=20 = expert
          &nb= sp;   =20 a. nose strut check ($65.00 part that can cost $20,000 to fix if it=20 = fails)
          &nb= sp;    =20 b. accumulator=20 = function
          &= nbsp;    =20 c. gear movement
4      Weight and balance = should=20 be rechecked

AVIONICS

1     Chelton = screens=20 are an orphans and i would not suggest maintaining=20 them
         ; but. the = recent=20 Garmen and Dynon systems are so inexpensive that you can end up with a = superior system for =
         =20 $10,000-12,000 range
2      Maybe a Garmin = 530 or=20 MX 20 (200) is enough for you; it is for me and i fly to VERY LOW IFR = in the=20 northeast

FLIGHT=20 TESTING

        get one of = the pro's=20 to test fly before you buy; you will know at least what you are up = against.=20 EVERY ONE FLIES = DIFFERENTLY
        my=20 4P when stalled rotates 110 degrees off either wing. i have not = stalled the=20 plane, this was test pilot report

FLIGHT=20 TRAINING

        VITAL>=20 VITAL
        11% of Lancair's = flown=20 home by NON-trained buyers crashes in some fashion. this includes = 20,000 hour=20 professional = pilots

         I=20 have over 200 hours in type in a year and half and am beginning to = "own" the=20 plane... beginning ! at 50 hours = i felt i=20 could fly it and at =
         100=20 hours we became=20 friends
          = remember=20 there is NO general aviation airplane that  is as demanding as a = Lancair=20 4.=20 =

INSURANCE
 
       =   =20 A    before you buy, check that you can get insurance. = if you=20 are financing; hull insurance will be=20 required
         =20 B    My quote for the first year was $14,000 for 200k = hull and=20 $1m liability only 100k per seat and a $10,000=20 = deductible
          = ;        =20 at the time i had 3,600 hours IFR & Multy and 2,700 hour twin=20 time
         =20 C    recently a 500 hour pilot bought a 4P and never = flew it as=20 he could not get insurance coverage. he sold the plane for=20 $160,000
         =20 D    many owners go naked on hull and some Turbine = pilots go=20 naked on Liability as well=20
         =20 E    there is only one market for Lancair=20 insurance
         =20 F    last year i had Liability only on a 4P and the = cost was=20 $3,200 a year; at the same time i had Liability only on a Lancair 4 = and the=20 = price
          &nbs= p;     =20 was $576 a year. Same pilot; same time frame, same=20 = coverage.
          =           =20 INSURANCE COMPANIES  DO NOT HAVE A GOOD HISTORY ON THE LANCAIR=20 = 4P

PRICES

        &= nbsp;=20 In the last two years, i know of three 4P's that have sold in the = $160-175K.=20 and i believe that the prices are not firm.  a 4P turbine just = sold =20
          $300,000 = and the=20 seller said that he had only one offer in two years. there was a short = sale of=20 a 4P turbine that sold for=20 = $250,000
           = I do=20 not see that the bottom has been reached for prices and i do not = believe that=20 the pricing reflects the quality of the build. some  are  = good and=20 some are = bad.
          =20 you might be better off buying at or below $200k and allocating the = rest of=20 the money to fix what ain't prefect


i may have missed some = points,=20 but this gives you a start


good=20 luck

peter




 

 
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