X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:43:27 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm17-vm1.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.213.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 6708630 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:15:24 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.213.55; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2014 20:14:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.213.8] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2014 20:14:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2014 20:14:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 572181.36762.bm@smtp108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: h8.lc94VM1kDXfak7xMzsOqf.NdfdgtxXTdpH1nM7HOYOKN JOGXzfhr3Y1JvCvWAAsQ8COLchYLxyRpYbnXIGQ0ae9z3SGiv1wI3D61UBsq caf8umejai0sGFH8_awl.DHag3QxzsnGd9DHfwm8vh2O2ZZU9CNLK1HyKEp9 Av9t2dVhsv3OGj5lXgEvvniX6s2X2lc9WEc27R7Q8S3iX5zLsT3uJqFToXZy 8foeTv1Dh6V.rJQ6zTqs.Q_VCgNNYqwZlyu.PpHmPUKmpNdUTJKZf5fQBUG. u6u8pISds4vIRyuzhsBde8McUKMGV1G0uVFqz7DkEzzMAkejo6eMI_aA5ZCk GFtOpleVbDpx1._lhr3.RWCxqmiaQkNecRKDpNDFYtjOnrd4bz3yyy8kazb5 kdQpt7RjxindoDYxjtq99JF98AEKELYW7iLOV4bizswPAs3LfcuidQqF0rNh bCgZwrGp6g4OBwV2cugpujPBck1gg2.CD3FNaktEbGkyBVMfBITUFfM.KqPN 1Y9e75B0QWBG8UzIokAfroReWu5tqSWwRrpd.PYmQFWNbKNsIwHi3dWzTw67 K3g-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: 076hgjCswBC.G6e0vm7vgvZ9JJ0zmeBo_Oyw X-Rocket-Received: from [10.67.205.193] (chris_zavatson@166.137.185.190 with xymcookie [216.39.61.254]) by smtp108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2014 12:14:49 -0800 PST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Cirrus spin in References: From: Chris Zavatston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2C002324-F7F6-4AC0-889D-A9C0E7C7B8F4 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <14F51E34-CF88-4D54-A7F2-4B4777A2382B@yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:14:43 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-2C002324-F7F6-4AC0-889D-A9C0E7C7B8F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Lynn, I agree with that assessment. I am sure his stall warning was blaring loudly= . Chris Zavatson On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:46 AM, "Lynn Farnsworth" wro= te: > What you REALLY NEED is an aural tone that tells you if you are in an AOA s= ituation where care needs to be taken. That way there is no requirement to l= ook at the AOA gage/vane to know what is going on in regards to AOA. > =20 > However, in this situation I think it is highly probable that the pilot pu= lled through the CRITICAL AOA too rapidly for even an aural tone to have sav= ed him from the stall. > =20 > Lynn Farnsworth > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tro= neill > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:47 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Cirrus spin in > =20 > Exactlyright. > An AOA indicator needs to be outside the aircraft and always in the pilots= field of vision. > Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a fifth-chord ahead of the l= eading edge. > =20 > Terrence >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan wrote: >=20 > Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the instrument panel (AOA or o= therwise) when an aircraft has been placed in an unusual attitude by a alarm= ed pilot is the last place that can save the outcome. Once the rotation star= ted and before the aircraft was inverted, the only way out was lots of forwa= rd stick and proper rudder management while looking outside. This is not the= instinctive reaction for any pilot unless he has significant hours of aerob= atics. I would like to avoid the argument about whether or not an AOA yellin= g at an alarmed pilot would help or hurt. > =20 > The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in until you begin to u= nderstand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid control inputs when a= t pattern altitude and speed must be avoided=E2=80=A6. especially when flyin= g high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our Lancairs. If the pilot h= ad taken a second to verify that no mid air was imminent and then flown the a= irplane rather than reacting to a harried controller we would not be trading= emails on this. > =20 > I am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an A= OA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sense of security that all u= nusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate while getting properly tr= ained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is also understandable that it i= s not for everyone. > =20 > Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2=80=A6.. after the mistakes we= re made, the pilot was the only one who could have prevented the accident=E2= =80=A6 his fault or not. > =20 > Jack Morgan > =20 > On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List wrote: >=20 >=20 > From: Terrence O'Neill > Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 > Date: January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST > To: lml@lancaironline.net >=20 >=20 > Kevin, > Yes, I agree. He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did n= ot have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator. >=20 > An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how c= lose he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle. > Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE. >=20 > The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years aft= er the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft. > What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy pilots= ' accident rate? > It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year! > Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general aviat= ion fatalities every year. > The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho. > It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families, a= nd their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly. >=20 > Terrence O'Neill > 4 yeas a Navy pilot. > I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested s= ix original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I could= SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA. > Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ...= but pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first FAA-d= ictated flight training. >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-2C002324-F7F6-4AC0-889D-A9C0E7C7B8F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Lynn,
I agree wi= th that assessment. I am sure his stall warning was blaring loudly.
Chris= Zavatson


On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:46 AM, "Lynn Farnswor= th" <farnsworth@charter.net= > wrote:

What you REALLY NEED is an aural tone that tells you if y= ou are in an AOA situation where care needs to be taken. That way there is n= o requirement to look at the AOA gage/vane to know what is going on in regar= ds to AOA.

 =

However, in this situation= I think it is highly probable that the pilot pulled through the CRITICAL AO= A too rapidly for even an aural tone to have saved him from the stall.<= /o:p>

 

Lynn Farnsworth

 

From: Lancair Mailing Li= st [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Troneill
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:47 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Ci= rrus spin in

&n= bsp;

Exactlyright.

=

An AOA indicator needs to be outside the aircraf= t and always in the pilots field of vision.

Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a fifth-chord= ahead of the leading edge.

=  

Terrence

Sent f= rom my iPad


On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> wrote:

Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the in= strument panel (AOA or otherwise) when an aircraft has been placed in an unu= sual attitude by a alarmed pilot is the last place that can save the outcome= . Once the rotation started and before the aircraft was inverted, the only w= ay out was lots of forward stick and proper rudder management while looking o= utside. This is not the instinctive reaction for any pilot unless he has sig= nificant hours of aerobatics. I would like to avoid the argument about wheth= er or not an AOA yelling at an alarmed pilot would help or hurt.<= /p>

 

The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in until you b= egin to understand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid control inpu= ts when at pattern altitude and speed must be avoided=E2=80=A6. especially w= hen flying high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our Lancairs. If th= e pilot had taken a second to verify that no mid air was imminent and then f= lown the airplane rather than reacting to a harried controller we would not b= e trading emails on this.

 

I am not arguing agains= t AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an AOA on the panel should n= ot give a pilot a false sense of security that all unusual attitudes can be a= voided. The accident rate while getting properly trained in aerobatics is sl= ightly higher so it is also understandable that it is not for everyone.=

 

=

Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2=80=A6.. a= fter the mistakes were made, the pilot was the only one who could have preve= nted the accident=E2=80=A6 his fault or not.

 

Jack= Morgan

 

On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Maili= ng List wrote:



From: Terrenc= e O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>



Kevin,
Yes, I a= gree.  He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did not h= ave or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator.

An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instant= ly, eye-to-hand -- how close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall= angle.
Speed has nothing to do w= ith that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE.

The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) yea= rs after the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft.
What was the result of using AOAs on landings b= y the excellent Navy pilots' accident rate?
It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first yea= r!
Unintentional stalls cause abo= ut a quarter to a third of all general aviation fatalities every year.
The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, i= mho.
It is so sad to lose the won= derful pilots and their friends and families, and their beautiful flying mac= hines .. needlessly.

Terrence= O'Neill
4 yeas a Navy pilot.
I designed, built and flight tested a= nd major-modified and flight tested six original aircraft, using my own-desi= gn of a simple AOA vane... so I could SEE how close I was flying my wings to= their fixed stall AOA.
Have publ= ished magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... but  = pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first FAA-dictate= d flight training.

 

= --Apple-Mail-2C002324-F7F6-4AC0-889D-A9C0E7C7B8F4--