X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:46:58 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta31.charter.net ([216.33.127.82] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTP id 6708319 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:21:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.82; envelope-from=farnsworth@charter.net Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20140129172048.FWRB6769.mta31.charter.net@imp10> for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:20:48 -0500 Received: from OWNERPC ([24.240.22.2]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id KtLn1n00G02iJEo05tLnzl; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:20:48 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=Q7eKePKa c=1 sm=1 a=mHRM3OX74vzkVKuopJY6mQ==:17 a=qo0YmFFnnZ4A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=uf0qTsR2rKgA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=qigGfaH01mg2DyeLCeIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=C1Vst7xTDmHdQaybHCYA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=9rtfa4m-X3YA:10 a=mHRM3OX74vzkVKuopJY6mQ==:117 From: "Lynn Farnsworth" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Cirrus spin in X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:20:42 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <004a01cf1d16$706b25f0$514171d0$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01CF1CEC.87967D80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGpiC8DAZcTsloOePivAzuVlL29mZrnGVSQ Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01CF1CEC.87967D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What you REALLY NEED is an aural tone that tells you if you are in an = AOA situation where care needs to be taken. That way there is no = requirement to look at the AOA gage/vane to know what is going on in = regards to AOA. =20 However, in this situation I think it is highly probable that the pilot = pulled through the CRITICAL AOA too rapidly for even an aural tone to = have saved him from the stall. =20 Lynn Farnsworth =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Troneill Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:47 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Cirrus spin in =20 Exactlyright. An AOA indicator needs to be outside the aircraft and always in the = pilots field of vision. Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a fifth-chord ahead of = the leading edge. =20 Terrence Sent from my iPad On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan = wrote: Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the instrument panel (AOA = or otherwise) when an aircraft has been placed in an unusual attitude by = a alarmed pilot is the last place that can save the outcome. Once the = rotation started and before the aircraft was inverted, the only way out = was lots of forward stick and proper rudder management while looking = outside. This is not the instinctive reaction for any pilot unless he = has significant hours of aerobatics. I would like to avoid the argument = about whether or not an AOA yelling at an alarmed pilot would help or = hurt. =20 The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in until you begin = to understand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid control = inputs when at pattern altitude and speed must be avoided=E2=80=A6. = especially when flying high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our = Lancairs. If the pilot had taken a second to verify that no mid air was = imminent and then flown the airplane rather than reacting to a harried = controller we would not be trading emails on this. =20 I am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having = an AOA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sense of security = that all unusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate while = getting properly trained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is also = understandable that it is not for everyone. =20 Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2=80=A6.. after the mistakes = were made, the pilot was the only one who could have prevented the = accident=E2=80=A6 his fault or not. =20 Jack Morgan =20 On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 Date: January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST To: lml@lancaironline.net Kevin, Yes, I agree. He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he = did not have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator. An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- = how close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle. Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE. The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years = after the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft. What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy = pilots' accident rate? It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year! Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general = aviation fatalities every year. The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho. It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and = families, and their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly. Terrence O'Neill 4 yeas a Navy pilot. I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested = six original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I = could SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA. Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years = ... but pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their = first FAA-dictated flight training. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01CF1CEC.87967D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What you = REALLY NEED is an aural tone that tells you if you are in an AOA = situation where care needs to be taken. That way there is no requirement = to look at the AOA gage/vane to know what is going on in regards to = AOA.

 

However, in = this situation I think it is highly probable that the pilot pulled = through the CRITICAL AOA too rapidly for even an aural tone to have = saved him from the stall.

 

Lynn = Farnsworth

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Troneill
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:47 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Cirrus spin in

 

Exactlyright.

An AOA indicator needs to be outside the aircraft and = always in the pilots field of vision.

Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a = fifth-chord ahead of the leading edge.

 

Terrence

Sent from my = iPad


On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack = Morgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> = wrote:

Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the = instrument panel (AOA or otherwise) when an aircraft has been placed in = an unusual attitude by a alarmed pilot is the last place that can save = the outcome. Once the rotation started and before the aircraft was = inverted, the only way out was lots of forward stick and proper rudder = management while looking outside. This is not the instinctive reaction = for any pilot unless he has significant hours of aerobatics. I would = like to avoid the argument about whether or not an AOA yelling at an = alarmed pilot would help or hurt.

 

The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in = until you begin to understand the situation you are in. In any case, = rapid control inputs when at pattern altitude and speed must be = avoided=E2=80=A6. especially when flying high performance aircraft like = the Cirrus and our Lancairs. If the pilot had taken a second to verify = that no mid air was imminent and then flown the airplane rather than = reacting to a harried controller we would not be trading emails on = this.

 

I = am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an = AOA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sense of security that = all unusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate while getting = properly trained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is also = understandable that it is not for everyone.

 

Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2=80=A6.. = after the mistakes were made, the pilot was the only one who could have = prevented the accident=E2=80=A6 his fault or = not.

 

Jack Morgan

 

On = Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List = wrote:



From: Terrence = O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>

Subject: Re: = [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014

Date: January = 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST



<= span class=3Dapple-style-span>Kevin,
Yes, I agree.  He pulled his wing up into = a stall-angle -- because he did not have or did not use an AOA -angle of = attack indicator.

An AOA = indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how close = he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle.
Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing = stalls at an ANGLE.

The FAA = is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years after the = US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft.
What was the result of using AOAs on landings = by the excellent Navy pilots' accident rate?
It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in = the very first year!
Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a = third of all general aviation fatalities every year.
The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, = imho.
It is so sad to lose the = wonderful pilots and their friends and families, and their beautiful = flying machines .. needlessly.

Terrence O'Neill
4 yeas a Navy pilot.
I designed, built and flight tested and = major-modified and flight tested six original aircraft, using my = own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I could SEE how close I was flying = my wings to their fixed stall AOA.
Have published magazine articles ranting on the = same need for 50 years ... but  pilots seem to be locked into = thinking programmed by their first FAA-dictated flight = training.

 

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01CF1CEC.87967D80--