X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:47:28 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta41.charter.net ([216.33.127.83] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTP id 6708051 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:06:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.83; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20140129160611.FFHS10143.mta41.charter.net@imp11> for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:06:11 -0500 Received: from [192.168.169.2] ([75.132.138.21]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id Ks6A1n00W0Tt8ir05s6Agd; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:06:11 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=F7QP7ddN c=1 sm=1 a=aYyw0vc49R1sEpoH71fRzw==:17 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=9XgBbYNo5TgA:10 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3GqYqEXjG_N4etCvvZIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=hZRopIj69Z6aoHzuVi4A:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=9rtfa4m-X3YA:10 a=aYyw0vc49R1sEpoH71fRzw==:117 X-Auth-id: dHJvbmVpbGxAY2hhcnRlci5uZXQ= Subject: Re: [LML] Cirrus spin in References: From: Troneill Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2AFE66EE-C122-4349-BD66-6CBAADB7A908 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (10B329) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <25CE7705-FE44-4F47-88B0-4229796E330D@charter.net> X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:06:11 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-2AFE66EE-C122-4349-BD66-6CBAADB7A908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactlyright. An AOA indicator needs to be outside the aircraft and always in the pilots f= ield of vision. Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a fifth-chord ahead of the le= ading edge. Terrence Sent from my iPad On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan wrote: > Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the instrument panel (AOA or o= therwise) when an aircraft has been placed in an unusual attitude by a alarm= ed pilot is the last place that can save the outcome. Once the rotation star= ted and before the aircraft was inverted, the only way out was lots of forwa= rd stick and proper rudder management while looking outside. This is not the= instinctive reaction for any pilot unless he has significant hours of aerob= atics. I would like to avoid the argument about whether or not an AOA yellin= g at an alarmed pilot would help or hurt. >=20 > The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in until you begin to u= nderstand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid control inputs when a= t pattern altitude and speed must be avoided=E2=80=A6. especially when flyin= g high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our Lancairs. If the pilot h= ad taken a second to verify that no mid air was imminent and then flown the a= irplane rather than reacting to a harried controller we would not be trading= emails on this. >=20 > I am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an A= OA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sense of security that all u= nusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate while getting properly tr= ained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is also understandable that it i= s not for everyone. >=20 > Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2=80=A6.. after the mistakes we= re made, the pilot was the only one who could have prevented the accident=E2= =80=A6 his fault or not. >=20 > Jack Morgan >=20 > On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List wrote: >=20 >> From: Terrence O'Neill >> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 >> Date: January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>=20 >>=20 >> Kevin, >> Yes, I agree. He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did= not have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator. >>=20 >> An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how= close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle. >> Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE. >>=20 >> The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years af= ter the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft. >> What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy pilot= s' accident rate? >> It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year! >> Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general avia= tion fatalities every year. >> The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho. >> It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families,= and their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly. >>=20 >> Terrence O'Neill >> 4 yeas a Navy pilot. >> I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested s= ix original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I could= SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA. >> Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ..= . but pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first FAA-= dictated flight training. >=20 --Apple-Mail-2AFE66EE-C122-4349-BD66-6CBAADB7A908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Exactlyright.
An AOA indicat= or needs to be outside the aircraft and always in the pilots field of vision= .
Mine has usually been placed on the left wing, a fifth-chord ahe= ad of the leading edge.

Terrence

Sent from m= y iPad

On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> wrote:
<= br>
Sorry to fuel the controversy but lo= oking at the instrument panel (AOA or otherwise) when an aircraft has been p= laced in an unusual attitude by a alarmed pilot is the last place that can s= ave the outcome. Once the rotation started and before the aircraft was inver= ted, the only way out was lots of forward stick and proper rudder management= while looking outside. This is not the instinctive reaction for any pilot u= nless he has significant hours of aerobatics. I would like to avoid the argu= ment about whether or not an AOA yelling at an alarmed pilot would help or h= urt.

The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets i= n until you begin to understand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid= control inputs when at pattern altitude and speed must be avoided=E2=80=A6.= especially when flying high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our La= ncairs. If the pilot had taken a second to verify that no mid air was immine= nt and then flown the airplane rather than reacting to a harried controller w= e would not be trading emails on this.

I am not arg= uing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an AOA on the pan= el should not give a pilot a false sense of security that all unusual attitu= des can be avoided. The accident rate while getting properly trained in aero= batics is slightly higher so it is also understandable that it is not for ev= eryone.

Don't care whose fault it was on this one=E2= =80=A6.. after the mistakes were made, the pilot was the only one who could h= ave prevented the accident=E2=80=A6 his fault or not.

Jack Morgan

On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair M= ailing List wrote:

From: Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net= >
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014
Date: January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST


Kevin,
Yes,= I agree.  He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did n= ot have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator.

An AOA indi= cator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how close he hims= elf is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle.
Speed has nothing to do w= ith that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE.

The FAA is STILL not requiring t= raining using AOAs -- fifty (50) years after the US Navy put them on every c= arrier-based aircraft.
What was the result of using AOAs on landings by t= he excellent Navy pilots' accident rate?
It cut landing accidents fifty (= 50) percent in the very first year!
Unintentional stalls cause about a qu= arter to a third of all general aviation fatalities every year.
The FAA i= s a stubborn, slow learner, imho.
It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilo= ts and their friends and families, and their beautiful flying machines .. ne= edlessly.

Terrence O'Neill
4 yeas a Navy pilot.
I designed, bui= lt and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested six original aircr= aft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I could SEE how close I w= as flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA.
Have published magazine arti= cles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... but  pilots seem to be l= ocked into thinking programmed by their first FAA-dictated flight training.<= br>

= --Apple-Mail-2AFE66EE-C122-4349-BD66-6CBAADB7A908--