X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:46:44 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yk0-f171.google.com ([209.85.160.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 6707911 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:51:23 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.171; envelope-from=mwsletten@gmail.com Received: by mail-yk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 142so8779524ykq.2 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:50:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.94.131 with SMTP id n3mr322074yhf.138.1391007047758; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.79.65 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:50:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:50:47 -0600 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Cirrus spin in From: Mark Sletten X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3011dc81f6384604f11d10c1 --20cf3011dc81f6384604f11d10c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My primary flight instructor, way, way, way back in the day, taught all his students the very first thing you should do when something unusual happened is wind the clock. This was (way, way, way) before electronic flight instruments, when most panel clocks were mechanical. Winding the clock was, of course, a distraction. The real goal was not to react to a situation until you understand it well enough to make an informed decision. --Mark On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Jack Morgan wrote: > Sorry to fuel the controversy but looking at the instrument panel (AOA or > otherwise) when an aircraft has been placed in an unusual attitude by a > alarmed pilot is the last place that can save the outcome. Once the > rotation started and before the aircraft was inverted, the only way out was > lots of forward stick and proper rudder management while looking outside. > This is not the instinctive reaction for any pilot unless he has > significant hours of aerobatics. I would like to avoid the argument about > whether or not an AOA yelling at an alarmed pilot would help or hurt. > > The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in until you begin to > understand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid control inputs when > at pattern altitude and speed must be avoided.... especially when flying high > performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our Lancairs. If the pilot had > taken a second to verify that no mid air was imminent and then flown the > airplane rather than reacting to a harried controller we would not be > trading emails on this. > > I am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote aerobatics. Having an > AOA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sense of security that all > unusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate while getting properly > trained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is also understandable that > it is not for everyone. > > Don't care whose fault it was on this one..... after the mistakes were made, > the pilot was the only one who could have prevented the accident... his fault > or not. > > Jack Morgan > > On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List wrote: > > *From: *Terrence O'Neill > *Subject: **Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014* > *Date: *January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST > *To: *lml@lancaironline.net > > > Kevin, > Yes, I agree. He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did > not have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator. > > An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how > close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle. > Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE. > > The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years > after the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft. > What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy > pilots' accident rate? > It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year! > Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general > aviation fatalities every year. > The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho. > It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families, > and their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly. > > Terrence O'Neill > 4 yeas a Navy pilot. > I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested > six original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I > could SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA. > Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... > but pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first > FAA-dictated flight training. > > > --20cf3011dc81f6384604f11d10c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My primary flight instructor, way, way, way back in the da= y, taught all his students the very first thing you should do when somethin= g unusual happened is wind the clock. This was (way, way, way) before elect= ronic flight instruments, when most panel clocks were mechanical.

Winding the clock was, of course, a distraction. The real go= al was not to react to a situation until you understand it well enough to m= ake an informed decision.

--Mark


On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Jack Mo= rgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> wrote:
Sorry to fuel the controversy but looki= ng at the instrument panel (AOA or otherwise) when an aircraft has been pla= ced in an unusual attitude by a alarmed pilot is the last place that can sa= ve the outcome. Once the rotation started and before the aircraft was inver= ted, the only way out was lots of forward stick and proper rudder managemen= t while looking outside. This is not the instinctive reaction for any pilot= unless he has significant hours of aerobatics. I would like to avoid the a= rgument about whether or not an AOA yelling at an alarmed pilot would help = or hurt.

The lesson is don't do anything when confusion sets in u= ntil you begin to understand the situation you are in. In any case, rapid c= ontrol inputs when at pattern altitude and speed must be avoided…. e= specially when flying high performance aircraft like the Cirrus and our Lan= cairs. If the pilot had taken a second to verify that no mid air was immine= nt and then flown the airplane rather than reacting to a harried controller= we would not be trading emails on this.

I am not arguing against AOA's or trying to promote= aerobatics. Having an AOA on the panel should not give a pilot a false sen= se of security that all unusual attitudes can be avoided. The accident rate= while getting properly trained in aerobatics is slightly higher so it is a= lso understandable that it is not for everyone.

Don't care whose fault it was on this one…..= after the mistakes were made, the pilot was the only one who could have pr= evented the accident… his fault or not.

Jac= k Morgan

On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Lancair Mailing List wrote:=

From: Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- = January 2014
Date: January 27, 2014 2:24:52 PM EST


Kevin,
Yes, I agree.  He pulled his wing up in= to a stall-angle -- because he did not have or did not use an AOA -angle of= attack indicator.

An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- insta= ntly, eye-to-hand -- how close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its st= all angle.
Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE.

The FA= A is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years after the = US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft.
What was the result of= using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy pilots' accident rate? It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year!
Unin= tentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general aviation f= atalities every year.
The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho.
It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families, a= nd their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly.

Terrence O'Nei= ll
4 yeas a Navy pilot.
I designed, built and flight tested and major= -modified and flight tested six original aircraft, using my own-design of a= simple AOA vane... so I could SEE how close I was flying my wings to their= fixed stall AOA.
Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... = but  pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first = FAA-dictated flight training.

=

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