X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:49:44 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yk0-f173.google.com ([209.85.160.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 6707890 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:40:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.173; envelope-from=mwsletten@gmail.com Received: by mail-yk0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 20so8734874yks.4 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:39:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.20.75 with SMTP id o51mr1444248yho.65.1391006383573; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.79.65 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 06:39:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:39:43 -0600 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 From: Mark Sletten X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015383445f91c804f11ce978 --089e015383445f91c804f11ce978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Many of the indicator and warning devices on our aircraft are designed to let us know when we are trying to do something we know the aircraft cannot do. --Mark On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Kevin Stallard wrote: > I don't know about anyone else, but I don't need an AOA to know that I > can't do that.... > ________________________________________ > From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Terrence > O'Neill [troneill@charter.net] > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 12:24 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 > > Kevin, > Yes, I agree. He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he did > not have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator. > > An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how > close he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle. > Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE. > > The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years > after the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft. > What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy > pilots' accident rate? > It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year! > Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general > aviation fatalities every year. > The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho. > It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families, > and their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly. > > Terrence O'Neill > 4 yeas a Navy pilot. > I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested > six original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I > could SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA. > Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... > but pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first > FAA-dictated flight training. > > > > > > On Jan 27, 2014, at 10:44 AM, Kevin Stallard wrote: > > > Hi Bill, > > > > If I may respectfully (emphasis on respectfully) disagree. > > > > It wasn't .the controller that put the plane in a bank and pulled up. > Was the controller confusing? Yep, no doubt. I have to honestly say > that as soon as I heard 'no' and something about extending the downwind, I > would have had the inclination of turning left as well. > > > > I would say that part of the confusion was from the pilot not following > directions in the first place. If he had been on downwind as the > controller was expecting him too...what would have happened? Who knows... > > > > In any case, the final analysis is that the pilot did something with > his airplane that caused it to spin. > > > > Real sad..... > > > > Kevin > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill > Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 8:11 AM > > To: lml@lancaironline.net > > Subject: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014 > > > > The lesson here is who is going to be at fault when an accident occurs. > The controller cleared the Cirrus to land. He didn't clear him number two > after the other Cirrus. He also cleared him to land long, so it was > perfectly logical for the pilot to turn base immediately. Sure, he would > probably have lived if he had turned right and landed long and the other > Cirrus had landed on the numbers, but he didn't have the other plane in > sight and didn't know where he was so he tried to climb and turn away from > the airport and in his panic, did so too aggressively. > > > > The controller was the total cause of the accident but everything in the > piece turns it back to the pilot. > > > > Just keep in mind that your pilot license is in the hands of the > controller, but your LIFE is in YOUR hands! > > > > Bill > > > > > > -- > > For archives and unsub > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html > > > -- > For archives and unsub > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html > -- > For archives and unsub > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html > --089e015383445f91c804f11ce978 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many of the indicator and warning devices on our aircraft = are designed to let us know when we are trying to do something we know the = aircraft cannot do.

--Mark




O= n Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Kevin Stallard <kevin@arilabs.net><= /span> wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I do= n't need an AOA to know that I can't do that….
________________________________________
From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@la= ncaironline.net] On Behalf Of Terrence O'Neill [troneill@charter.net]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 12:24 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014

Kevin,
Yes, I agree.  He pulled his wing up into a stall-angle -- because he = did not have or did not use an AOA -angle of attack indicator.

An AOA indicator PRIMARILY shows a pilot -- instantly, eye-to-hand -- how c= lose he himself is pitching his wing -- to its stall angle.
Speed has nothing to do with that; a wing stalls at an ANGLE.

The FAA is STILL not requiring training using AOAs -- fifty (50) years afte= r the US Navy put them on every carrier-based aircraft.
What was the result of using AOAs on landings by the excellent Navy pilots&= #39; accident rate?
It cut landing accidents fifty (50) percent in the very first year!
Unintentional stalls cause about a quarter to a third of all general aviati= on fatalities every year.
The FAA is a stubborn, slow learner, imho.
It is so sad to lose the wonderful pilots and their friends and families, a= nd their beautiful flying machines .. needlessly.

Terrence O'Neill
4 yeas a Navy pilot.
I designed, built and flight tested and major-modified and flight tested si= x original aircraft, using my own-design of a simple AOA vane... so I could= SEE how close I was flying my wings to their fixed stall AOA.
Have published magazine articles ranting on the same need for 50 years ... = but  pilots seem to be locked into thinking programmed by their first = FAA-dictated flight training.





On Jan 27, 2014, at 10:44 AM, Kevin Stallard wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> If I may respectfully (emphasis on respectfully) disagree.
>
> It wasn't .the controller that put the plane in a bank and pulled = up.   Was the controller confusing?   Yep, no doubt.   I hav= e to honestly say that as soon as I heard 'no' and something about = extending the downwind, I would have had the inclination of  turning l= eft as well.
>
> I would say that part of the confusion was from the pilot not followin= g directions in the first place.  If he had been on downwind as the co= ntroller was expecting him too...what would have happened?  Who knows.= ..
>
> In any case,  the final analysis is that the pilot did something = with his airplane that caused it to spin.
>
> Real sad.....
>
> Kevin
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Lancair Mailing List [l= ml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 8:11 AM
> To: lml@lancaironline.net=
> Subject: [LML] Re: LOBO eNews -- January 2014
>
> The lesson here is who is going to be at fault when an accident occurs= .  The controller cleared the Cirrus to land.  He didn’t cl= ear him number two after the other Cirrus.  He also cleared him to lan= d long, so it was perfectly logical for the pilot to turn base immediately.=  Sure, he would probably have lived if he had turned right and landed= long and the other Cirrus had landed on the numbers, but he didn’t h= ave the other plane in sight and didn’t know where he was so he tried= to climb and turn away from the airport and in his panic, did so too aggre= ssively.
>
> The controller was the total cause of the accident but everything in t= he piece turns it back to the pilot.
>
> Just keep in mind that your pilot license is in the hands of the contr= oller, but your LIFE is in YOUR hands!
>
> Bill
>
>
> --
> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= lml/List.html


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