X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 08:04:52 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [207.46.163.242] (HELO na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6579714 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 02:46:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.46.163.242; envelope-from=henry@cptgroup.com Received: from DM2PR07MB336.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.98.19) by DM2PR07MB334.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.98.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.815.6; Thu, 7 Nov 2013 07:45:50 +0000 Received: from DM2PR07MB336.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.13.67]) by DM2PR07MB336.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.13.23]) with mapi id 15.00.0815.000; Thu, 7 Nov 2013 07:45:50 +0000 From: Henry Arjad X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem Thread-Index: AQHO2lLdfU8ZApZu70WtIZw2qT+PU5oZUHRQ Disposition-Notification-To: Henry Arjad X-Original-Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 07:45:49 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <4716cfd1f2a1402da73fcfe0921c98ca@DM2PR07MB336.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [209.80.5.75] x-forefront-prvs: 00235A1EEF x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(55674002)(24454002)(189002)(199002)(377454003)(79102001)(15975445006)(80976001)(80022001)(19580395003)(83322001)(19580405001)(81542001)(65816001)(56816003)(77096001)(16236675002)(76576001)(76786001)(76796001)(15202345003)(85306002)(66066001)(83072001)(87266001)(63696002)(19300405004)(81816001)(81686001)(69226001)(77982001)(59766001)(81342001)(56776001)(54316002)(76482001)(51856001)(74366001)(46102001)(74316001)(54356001)(50986001)(49866001)(47736001)(47976001)(4396001)(53806001)(74706001)(74876001)(31966008)(47446002)(74502001)(74662001)(33646001)(2656002)(87936001)(24736002);DIR:OUT;SFP:;SCL:1;SRVR:DM2PR07MB334;H:DM2PR07MB336.namprd07.prod.outlook.com;CLIP:209.80.5.75;FPR:;RD:InfoNoRecords;MX:1;A:1;LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4716cfd1f2a1402da73fcfe0921c98caDM2PR07MB336namprd07pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: cptgroup.com --_000_4716cfd1f2a1402da73fcfe0921c98caDM2PR07MB336namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the canopy open up on me 3 times when I had my 360. First time was m= y own fault, on takeoff roll as soon as I applied power canopy lifted up, I= just powered down, stopped and hatched the canopy. Since then it has beco= me my habit to push up on the canopy as I'm taxing onto the runway. The other 2 times were both passenger induced while in flight. Both times = it got very noisy, windy and cold, but not much change in controlling of th= e airplane. I had a lanyard attached to the canopy to help in lowering it.= After assuring my passengers that we were in no imminent danger, I had th= em hold on to the lanyard to prevent canopy oscillation as well as keeping = them from further panicking. Both times I kept my attention to flying the = airplane and not the open canopy and landed normally. I'm sure having a la= nyard to hold down the canopy helped. In reading all the discussions on this issue, my concern is how a secondary= safety lock would or could hinder emergency egress or rescue. A warning l= ight seems safer in that respect, but it still has a chance of being missed= or ignored. Ultimately it comes down to the pilot to be the last fail saf= e point. I still continue my habit of pushing up on the canopy as taxing o= nto the runway in my Legacy trying to prevent another unwanted experience a= nd email to the list. Henry Arjad Legacy N22YY KSNA From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill= Bradburry Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:14 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem That is a good point, Mark! Now is a good time for everybody who has forgot to close the canopy and fou= nd it to be a non-event to pipe up with the details. Come on guys, fess up= ! Personally, I have experienced the event and if I had been more than a coup= le of feet off the ground when it happened I would not have survived it. T= he canopy flies up and down and with each cycle the pitch control comes and= goes. To those of you who think it is a non-event, like practicing stalls, I say = try it! Put on your little test pilot helmet and give it a go! In the meantime, be sure to add "canopy latched" to the check list and read= the damn thing each time you are preparing for takeoff. Bill ________________________________ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark= Sletten Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:28 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open c= anopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really an e= vent worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come back= to land before I could finish my trip." Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the t= ransponder either. "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded me= , so I turned it on." --Mark On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Erik Larson > wrote: Guys, I think as a community we are practicing denial. There is a 500 pou= nd gorilla standing in the corner of the room and everyone is ignoring him. Canopy problems are killing our friends. The solution is not more bells, l= ights, switches and alarms, but a fail safe secondary sprin- loaded mechani= cal latch like the secondary hood latch on your car. A modest team effort = exchanging ideas and then teaming up to make some parts for retrofit would = do the job. Hoping your canopy will stay shut is not a plan. Since fatal results are f= requently obtained, lights and switches are not enough. Fred Moreno I must say, I ABSOLUTELY agree with Fred on this.... something has got to b= e done about this Legacy Canopy issue and SOON! At the very least, if Lancair is not going to address the issue directly wi= th some kind of fail safe locking device, then they should, at the VERY lea= st, amend the Legacy Operating Handbook, where it says, in so many words: = "If the canopy is left unlocked.... no problem.... just fly the airplane an= d everything will be OK..." to something like: "If you leave the canopy u= nlocked on the Legacy and get off the ground....there is a VERY good chance= you will DIE or if you're lucky, just severely injured..." I have followed these numerous canopy incidents/accidents and can NOT think= of ONE, where it hasn't killed someone or if they are really lucky.... the= y come back with a harrowing tale of MAJOR controllability issues! Apparen= tly this is not the case with the 235, 320, or 360... but with the Legacy..= .it ALWAYS is!!! As Fred said, Lights, Bells, Whistles, and Warnings are fine....but we need= some sort of Fail Safe Latch or these tragic, needless accidents are going= to keep happening. Someone mentioned a "simple safety pin through the canopy frame and the rol= l over structure".... while that may work as a secondary latch, it still re= quires you to "do something" before takeoff for it to work. A fail safe latch, by design, should allow you to taxi with the canopy crac= ked for ventilation but if the canopy is inadvertently left unlocked, to ul= timately open NO more than a couple of inches. Aren't others in the Legacy community concerned about this? I know Fred is....I know I am!! Regards, Erik Larson Legacy N74FX 7years / 700 hrs in type 25,000+ hrs total time --_000_4716cfd1f2a1402da73fcfe0921c98caDM2PR07MB336namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had the canopy open up on me 3 times when I had my 360.&n= bsp; First time was my own fault, on takeoff roll as soon as I applied powe= r canopy lifted up, I just powered down, stopped and hatched the canopy.  Since then it has become my habit to push up on = the canopy as I’m taxing onto the runway. 

 

The other 2 times were both passenger induced while in flig= ht.  Both times it got very noisy, windy and cold, but not much change= in controlling of the airplane.  I had a lanyard attached to the canopy to help in lowering it.  After assuring my passengers t= hat we were in no imminent danger, I had them hold on to the lanyard to pre= vent canopy oscillation as well as keeping them from further panicking.&nbs= p; Both times I kept my attention to flying the airplane and not the open canopy and landed normally.  I’m = sure having a lanyard to hold down the canopy helped.

 

In reading all the discussions on this issue, my concern is= how a secondary safety lock would or could hinder emergency egress or resc= ue.  A warning light seems safer in that respect, but it still has a chance of being missed or ignored.  Ultimately it = comes down to the pilot to be the last fail safe point.  I still conti= nue my habit of pushing up on the canopy as taxing onto the runway in my Le= gacy trying to prevent another unwanted experience and email to the list. 

 

Henry Arjad

Legacy N22YY KSNA

 

 

 

From: Lancair = Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:14 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem

 

That is a good point, Mark!

 

Now is a good time for everybo= dy who has forgot to close the canopy and found it to be a non-event to pip= e up with the details.  Come on guys, fess up!

 

Personally, I have experienced= the event and if I had been more than a couple of feet off the ground when= it happened I would not have survived it.  The canopy flies up and down and with each cycle the pitch control comes and goes.

 

To those of you who think it i= s a non-event, like practicing stalls, I say try it!  Put on your litt= le test pilot helmet and give it a go!

 

In the meantime, be sure to ad= d “canopy latched” to the check list and read the damn thing ea= ch time you are preparing for takeoff.

 

Bill

 

From: Lancair = Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancairon= line.net] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:28 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem

 

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about in= cidents where an open canopy didn't interfere with controllability is becau= se it's not really an event worth discussing, plus there's an element of em= barrassment. 

 

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before t= ake-off and had to come back to land before I could finish my trip."

 

Don't really hear too many stories about people forg= etting to turn on the transponder either.

 

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder bef= ore takeoff. ATC reminded me, so I turned it on."

 

--Mark

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Erik Larson <asw20747@aol.com> = wrote:

Guys, I think a= s a community we are practicing denial.   There is a 500 pou= nd gorilla standing in the corner of the room and everyone is ignoring= him.  

Canopy problems= are killing our friends.  The solution is not more bells, lights, swi= tches and alarms, but a fail safe secondary sprin- loaded mechanical latch like the secondary hood latch on your car.  A modest = team effort exchanging ideas and then teaming up to make some parts fo= r retrofit would do the job. 

Hoping your can= opy will stay shut is not a plan.  Since fatal results are freque= ntly obtained, lights and switches are not enough.

  

Fred Moreno

 

 

= I must say, I ABSOLUTELY agree with Fred on this.... something has got to b= e done about this Legacy Canopy issue and SOON!

 =

= At the very least, if Lancair is not going to address the issue directly wi= th some kind of fail safe locking device, then they should, at the VERY least, amend the Legacy Ope= rating Handbook, where it says, in so many words:  "If the can= opy is left unlocked.... no problem.... just fly the airplane and everythin= g will be OK..."  to something like:  "If you lea= ve the canopy unlocked on the Legacy and get off the ground....there is a V= ERY good chance you will DIE or if you're lucky, just severely injured...&q= uot;

 =

= I have followed these numerous canopy incidents/accidents and can NOT think= of ONE, where it hasn't killed someone or if they are really lucky.... they come back with a harrowing tale of MAJOR controllability is= sues!  Apparently this is not the case with the 235, 320, or 360... bu= t with the Legacy...it ALWAYS is!!!

 =

= As Fred said, Lights, Bells, Whistles, and Warnings are fine....but we need= some sort of Fail Safe Latch or these tragic, needless accidents are going to keep happening.

 =

= Someone mentioned a "simple safety pin through the canopy frame and th= e roll over structure".... while that may work as a secondary latch, it still requires you to "d= o something" before takeoff for it to work.

 =

= A fail safe latch, by design, should allow you to taxi with the canopy crac= ked for ventilation but if the canopy is inadvertently left unlocked, to ultimately open NO more than a couple of inches.=

 =

= Aren't others in the Legacy community concerned about this?  

 =

= I know Fred is....I know I am!!

 =

= Regards,

 =

= Erik Larson

 =

= Legacy N74FX

7years / 700 hrs = in type

25,000+ hrs t= otal time

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 

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