X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 08:03:09 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.201] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6579630 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 22:26:46 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.201; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.197]) by omr-d04.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id A8EFE70004389 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:26:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.99.62.239] (mobile-166-147-080-078.mycingular.net [166.147.80.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id A5453E0000BF; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:26:11 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E891A121-0164-4045-89B8-19721B38390D X-Original-Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11A465) From: Jeff Edwards Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 19:26:07 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c5527b08535bd7 X-AOL-IP: 166.147.80.78 --Apple-Mail-E891A121-0164-4045-89B8-19721B38390D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The safety minded individual usually makes the changes required to reduce ri= sk; sees the benefit of risk reduction; etc. they, as a population are not t= he problem. In the last five years 48 serious Lancair accidents. Three invol= ved LOBO members; 45 involved non members. Why the differences? There are di= stinct differences in these two populations.=20 Does anyone know the pilot of the recent fatal Lancair accident in Oregon. I= will bet not. Jeff > On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:24 AM, Todd Long wrote: >=20 > Jeff a question for you about the 10% you think would implement the system= . I'm guessing that that 10% is probably mostly made up of the safety consci= ous minded pilot with good discipline.? Or is it the experimenter/Tinker tha= t never flies anyways? >=20 > Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. >=20 >> On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:10, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >>=20 >> Not to undermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft imp= rovements I would also make the following comments.=20 >>=20 >> Addressing the pilot situation only:=20 >>=20 >> As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my o= bservations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows: >>=20 >> The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather= , they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the t= ime. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There i= s a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many documen= ts. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it= is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all.=20 >>=20 >> Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuses. >>=20 >> 1. It takes time and energy. >> 2. They have done it many times before. >> 3. What could go wrong? >> 4. My flight instructor never taught me... >> 5. The other pilots do it this way. >>=20 >> The question from a piloting perspective is...."how do you regard checkli= sts?"=20 >>=20 >> If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to an= d use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here. >>=20 >> Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or safeguard w= ould you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional step to a= checklist you may not use now? >>=20 >> There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prio= r research on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented b= y more than about 10% of the population.=20 >>=20 >> Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine= your habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety impro= vements. >>=20 >> Jeff >> LOBO=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail wrote: >>>=20 >>> I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. I got to look over an E= S that returned after the door opened in flight. 60% of the R/H H stab was m= issing the leading edge. The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and t= he roof of the cabin was badly damaged. =20 >>>=20 >>> Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. =20 >>>=20 >>> Mike Larkin >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting on= e's head in the sand. If something is likely to kill, something should be d= one. At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a f= ew pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation. And to think that there= must be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the impo= rtant features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and cano= py shapes. And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant= to be a pilot." And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cut i= t. A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches should do t= he job. As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundred= s of comments from those that have had it happen. Hoping that Darwin's theo= ry has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic. I kno= w, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of satisfact= ion associated with it, but does it make sense? Something needs to be done -= I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act. Sooner or later t= hey will, unless the owners do something first. No, I'm not directly affect= ed, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own door-opening issues, b= ut not proven to be in the same realm. >>>> Gary Casey >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Mark Sletten >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an op= en >>>> canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really= an >>>> event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. >>>>=20 >>>> "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come b= ack >>>> to land before I could finish my trip." >>>>=20 >>>> Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on t= he >>>> transponder either. >>>>=20 >>>> "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminde= d >>>> me, so I turned it on." >>>>=20 >>>> --Mark --Apple-Mail-E891A121-0164-4045-89B8-19721B38390D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The safety minded individual usually m= akes the changes required to reduce risk; sees the benefit of risk reduction= ; etc. they, as a population are not the problem. In the last five years 48 s= erious Lancair accidents. Three involved LOBO members; 45 involved non membe= rs. Why the differences? There are distinct differences in these two populat= ions. 

Does anyone know the pilot of the recen= t fatal Lancair accident in Oregon. I will bet not.

Jeff



On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:24 AM, Todd= Long <toddlong1@gmail.com>= wrote:

Jeff a question for yo= u about the 10% you think would implement the system. I'm guessing that that= 10% is probably mostly made up of the safety conscious minded pilot with go= od discipline.? Or is it the experimenter/Tinker that never flies anyways?
Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone.
<= br>On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:10, vtailjeff@= aol.com wrote:

Not to u= ndermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft improvements I= would also make the following comments. 

Addr= essing the pilot situation only: 

As a long ti= me CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my observations fr= om flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows:

The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. R= ather, they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of= the time. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. T= here is a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many d= ocuments. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists y= et it is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all.&n= bsp;

Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a f= ew thoughts or excuses.

1. It takes time and energy= .
2. They have done it many times before.
3. What could g= o wrong?
4. My flight instructor never taught me...
5. T= he other pilots do it this way.

The question from a= piloting perspective is...."how do you regard checklists?" 
=
If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been t= rained to and use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned h= ere.

Even if there was a solution to put in an addi= tional latch or safeguard would you install it? Would you use it? Would you a= dd the additional step to a checklist you may not use now?

There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but= prior research on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be impleme= nted by more than about 10% of the population. 

Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine y= our habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety improve= ments.

Jeff
LOBO 

Sent from m= y iPad

On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail <legacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

I beg to differ about the do= or issue on the ES.  I got to look over an ES that returned after the d= oor opened in flight.  60% of the R/H H stab was missing the leading ed= ge.  The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and the roof of the c= abin was badly damaged.    

Cargo doors o= n the 4p and ES's have had their day too..  

M= ike Larkin

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 A= M, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.c= om> wrote:

I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one's= head in the sand.  If something is likely to kill, something should be= done.  At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as j= ust a few pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation.  And to thin= k that there must be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense eithe= r - the important features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locati= ons and canopy shapes.  And this is not the way to find out that you "j= ust weren't meant to be a pilot."  And to say, "just remember to latch i= t" just doesn't cut it.  A secondary latch copied from millions of car'= s hood latches should do the job.  As for "so easy it's not worth discu= ssing" I've yet to read hundreds of comments from those that have had it happen.  Hoping that Darwin's the= ory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic.  = ;I know, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of sat= isfaction associated with it, but does it make sense?  Something needs t= o be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act.  = Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do something first.  No, I= 'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own= door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the same realm.
Gary= Casey


From: Mark Sletten <mwsletten@gmail.com>

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents= where an open
= canopy didn't inter= fere with controllability is because it's not really an
event worth discussing, plus there's an element of emb= arrassment.
"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy befo= re take-off and had to come back
to= land before I could finish my trip."

Don't really hear= too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the
transponder either.

"Hey guys, I f= orgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded
me, so I turned it on."

--Mark<= /span>
= --Apple-Mail-E891A121-0164-4045-89B8-19721B38390D--