X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 08:02:43 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-d07.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6579626 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 22:07:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.204; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.194]) by omr-d07.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 374CD7014B84D for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.99.62.239] (mobile-166-147-080-078.mycingular.net [166.147.80.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 172ECE0000BB; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:07:00 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B0525547-25A5-4F34-9722-BE174BE3A136 X-Original-Message-Id: <18DF35D2-D5A3-4674-999B-2B4E4DF1CE4E@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11A465) From: Jeff Edwards Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 19:06:53 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c2527b03d422a3 X-AOL-IP: 166.147.80.78 --Apple-Mail-B0525547-25A5-4F34-9722-BE174BE3A136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Pilots write the darn things. The lancair checklist are written by the build= er. But when I say they don't do a checklist .. I mean they don't even pull= it out! Nada. Nothing. Jeff > On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:24 AM, Mike Larkin wrote: >=20 > Jeff, >=20 > One item you left out on why pilots don't use checklists... THEY ARE TOO L= ONG! I did a ride a few weeks ago with a guy in a 172 Cessna. The checklis= t had over 100 items on it. I wouldn't blame any pilot for not using this c= hecklist. A 414 I manage has a checklist with over 80 items on it... In co= ntrast: My test card for a return to service after heavy check on an Airbus= 321 only has 30 items on the complete flight test card. Our normal checkli= st for the same airplane only has 20 items for before taxi, before takoff an= d before landing combined... General aviation needs to get in the human fac= tors circle.... Human Factors is the real issue here.. >=20 > Mike Larkin >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:10 AM, wrote: >> Not to undermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft imp= rovements I would also make the following comments.=20 >>=20 >> Addressing the pilot situation only:=20 >>=20 >> As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my o= bservations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows: >>=20 >> The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather= , they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the t= ime. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There i= s a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many documen= ts. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it= is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all.=20 >>=20 >> Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuses. >>=20 >> 1. It takes time and energy. >> 2. They have done it many times before. >> 3. What could go wrong? >> 4. My flight instructor never taught me... >> 5. The other pilots do it this way. >>=20 >> The question from a piloting perspective is...."how do you regard checkli= sts?"=20 >>=20 >> If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to an= d use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here. >>=20 >> Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or safeguard w= ould you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional step to a= checklist you may not use now? >>=20 >> There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prio= r research on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented b= y more than about 10% of the population.=20 >>=20 >> Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine= your habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety impro= vements. >>=20 >> Jeff >> LOBO=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail wrote: >>>=20 >>> I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. I got to look over an E= S that returned after the door opened in flight. 60% of the R/H H stab was m= issing the leading edge. The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and t= he roof of the cabin was badly damaged. =20 >>>=20 >>> Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. =20 >>>=20 >>> Mike Larkin >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting on= e's head in the sand. If something is likely to kill, something should be d= one. At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a f= ew pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation. And to think that there= must be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the impo= rtant features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and cano= py shapes. And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant= to be a pilot." And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cut i= t. A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches should do t= he job. As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundred= s of comments from those that have had it happen. Hoping that Darwin's theo= ry has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic. I kno= w, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of satisfact= ion associated with it, but does it make sense? Something needs to be done -= I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act. Sooner or later t= hey will, unless the owners do something first. No, I'm not directly affect= ed, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own door-opening issues, b= ut not proven to be in the same realm. >>>> Gary Casey >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Mark Sletten >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an op= en >>>> canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really= an >>>> event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. >>>>=20 >>>> "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come b= ack >>>> to land before I could finish my trip." >>>>=20 >>>> Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on t= he >>>> transponder either. >>>>=20 >>>> "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminde= d >>>> me, so I turned it on." >>>>=20 >>>> --Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mike Larkin > LarkinAviationConsulting > LegacyL2K@gmail.com > 602-770-6054 --Apple-Mail-B0525547-25A5-4F34-9722-BE174BE3A136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,

Pilots w= rite the darn things. The lancair checklist are written by the builder. But w= hen I say they don't do a checklist ..  I mean they don't even pull it o= ut! Nada. Nothing.

Jeff

On Nov 6,= 2013, at 10:24 AM, Mike Larkin <l= egacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

Jeff,

One item you left out on why= pilots don't use checklists...  THEY ARE TOO LONG!  I did a ride a= few weeks ago with a guy in a 172 Cessna.  The checklist had over 100 i= tems on it.  I wouldn't blame any pilot for not using this checklist.&n= bsp; A 414 I manage has a checklist with over 80 items on it...  In con= trast:  My test card for a return to service after heavy check on an Ai= rbus 321 only has 30 items on the complete flight test card.  Our norma= l checklist for the same airplane only has 20 items for before taxi, before t= akoff and before landing combined...  General aviation needs to get in t= he human factors circle....  Human Factors is the real issue here..
=
Mike Larkin


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:10 AM, <vtailjeff@aol.com>= wrote:
Not to undermine= or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft improvements I would a= lso make the following comments. 

Addressing the pilot situation only: 
As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot exa= miner my observations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as fo= llows:

The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use c= hecklists. Rather, they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get m= issed all of the time. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are no= t critical. There is a standard out there for using checklists. it is contai= ned in many documents. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using th= e checklists yet it is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize t= hem at all. 

Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thought= s or excuses.

1. It takes time and energy.
2. They have done it many times before.
3. What could go wrong?<= /div>
4. My flight instructor never taught me...
5. The other pilot= s do it this way.

The question from a piloting pers= pective is...."how do you regard checklists?" 

If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been train= ed to and use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here= .

Even if there was a solution to put in an additio= nal latch or safeguard would you install it? Would you use it? Would you add= the additional step to a checklist you may not use now?

There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a sa= feguard, but prior research on these safety hardware issues shows it will no= t be implemented by more than about 10% of the population. 

Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approac= h. Reexamine your habits, make the necessary changes, and install important s= afety improvements.

Jeff
LOBO 

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:2= 9 AM, Mike's Gmail <legacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. &= nbsp;I got to look over an ES that returned after the door opened in flight.=  60% of the R/H H stab was missing the leading edge.  The empenna= ge was cracked 2/3 around the tail and the roof of the cabin was badly damag= ed.    

Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. &= nbsp;

Mike Larkin

Se= nt from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5= :32 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:

=
I've read lots of comments on this,= but most seem to be like putting one's head in the sand.  If something= is likely to kill, something should be done.  At least three fatalitie= s is far, far too many to write off as just a few pilots who couldn't handle= a "tricky" situation.  And to think that there must be some sort of bu= ild defficiency doesn't make sense either - the important features of the ai= rcraft are almost identical - pin locations and canopy shapes.  And thi= s is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant to be a pilot." &n= bsp;And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cut it.  A sec= ondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches should do the job. &= nbsp;As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundreds of= comments from those that have had it happen.  Hoping that Darwin's the= ory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic.  = ;I know, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of sat= isfaction associated with it, but does it make sense?  Something needs t= o be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act.  = Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do something first.  No, I= 'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own= door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the same realm.
Gary Casey


From: Mark Sletten <mwsletten@gmail.com>


I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open=
canopy didn't interfere= with controllability is because it's not really an
event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment.<= /span>

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before ta= ke-off and had to come back
to land before I could f= inish my trip."
Don't really hear too many stories about people for= getting to turn on the
transponder either.

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC remind= ed
me, so I turned it on."=

--Mark
<= /div>


--
Mike Larkin
LarkinAviationConsulting
LegacyL2K@gmail.com
602-770-6054 = --Apple-Mail-B0525547-25A5-4F34-9722-BE174BE3A136--