X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 14:45:28 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from mail-pa0-f42.google.com ([209.85.220.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6579190 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:56:31 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.42; envelope-from=2thman1@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id kp14so75233pab.15 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.68.254.105 with SMTP id ah9mr4760754pbd.87.1383764155639; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.14] (71-212-96-147.tukw.qwest.net. [71.212.96.147]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lm2sm282361pab.2.2013.11.06.10.55.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:55:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-43675A69-B6A3-4621-9276-0D8F601ADF07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy - Follow-up References: From: John Barrett <2thman1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:04:46 -0800 X-Original-Message-Id: <90975554-F14E-418F-A064-30C55E70F71D@gmail.com> X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11B511) --Apple-Mail-43675A69-B6A3-4621-9276-0D8F601ADF07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the two micro switches feeding EFIS or other annunciator is the solu= tion the community should best pursue. Matthew Collier of Fibercraft instal= led this fix on my baggage door (IVP). Certainly the critical nature of bag= gage door failure on my plane vs canopy open on yours is simply a world apar= t, but the effectiveness of the system is of HUGE benefit in my case and cou= ld be life saving in the Legacy world. The way it works is identical to john Smith's canopy system. There is one m= icro switch that is activated by pushing the door flush with the fuselage. T= he second one is a normally closed switch that will fire off the annunciator= if the forward door latch does not slide to place. There is a fwd and rear= latch. The fwd one is considered more critical as failure here could put t= he fwd lip of the door into the slip stream and rip it off. My annunciator is on the Vertical Power display unit and it will show a nice= red "baggage door" warning if either of the two switches is not in the prop= er mode as soon the VP is powered up. That means as soon as I get in the ai= rcraft and power up the system I have this persistent, obvious warning sign r= ight in the box where all my warnings and cautions for the VP show up. I co= uld add aural warnings and/or blinking signal to that I think. Might be a g= ood idea. So far, it has worked great. And yes, I have had to get back put= of the airplane to correct more than once. John Sent from my iPad > On Nov 6, 2013, at 4:29 AM, wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Posted for John Smith : >=20 > > I have posted on the forum a while back what I had done at that time. Be= low, > > is an update on that=C5=A0 along with what I'm doing now. > >=20 > > If its helpful to anyone out there, that's good. If you're entirely happ= y > > with what you're doing, please still read on as you may well be able to > > provide some valuable insight as to perhaps why nothing else needs to be= > > done around "the Legacy Canopy".. or perhaps those that have experienced= > > flight with the canopy open =C2=AD what IAS did you fly the aircraft at?= Did you > > leave flaps and gear extended=C5=A0 and so on, so you can help others un= derstand > > how they might be able safely return for a landing with a canopy open. > >=20 > >=20 > > Current status > >=20 > > Alarm > > * I have two micro switches installed in series to indicate an issue wit= h > > the canopy > >> * One is under the internal closure handle and unless the handle is in t= he > >> close position within ~1mm, the switch will not close > >> * The other is within the pilot side cockpit opening joggle at the back= of > >> tyne opening, and unless the canopy is seated to within 1 =C2=AD 2mm, t= he switch > >> will not close > >> * Thus if either the canopy is not seated or the internal handle is not= in > >> closed position, or if there is failure of the switches or wiring, an a= larm > >> condition is identified > > * I used to have this alarm showing up on my annunciator panel top RHS o= f my > > panel =C2=AD pretty useless to be honest when cockpit is flooded with li= ght > > * I am fortunate to have dual EFIS units, so all it took was to run anot= her > > wire to the EFIS system, and programme the EFIS to display a large red > > flashing warning "ALERT =C2=AD CANPY" both pilot side and co-pilot side.= This > > accompanied with a "BEEP BEEP" happening in the headsets. See attached > > picture of how the visual alarm appears. > >> * If I didn't have EFIS, I would have installed a very bright LED warni= ng > >> light pilot side and co-pilot side top of panel, along with a very loud= =20 > >>buzzer > >> or horn > > Normal Procedures > > * My Run-Up and Line-Up checks include "CANOPY CLOSED, LOCKED, ALARMS OU= T" > > Emergency Procedures > > * I have acknowledged that there MAY be an issue with controllability, b= ut I > > don't plan to wait to find out for sure. So I have adopted (with the sam= e > > priority as EFATO procedures) a procedure which says "IF CANOPY OPENS AT= ANY > > POINT PRIOR TO TAKE-OFF =3D> ABORT =C2=AD DO NOT PROCEED AIRBORNE" B= eyond that, > > and not knowing if this would work: "IF CANOPY OPENS IN FLIGHT AFTER > > TAKE-OFF =C2=AD MAINTAIN 140KTS, LEAVE FLAPS / GEAR EXTENDED, CLIMB TO 5= 00ft > > BEFORE POSITIONING FOR APPROACH TO LAND NOT BELOW 100kts" > >=20 > > In my opinion, no Legacy should fly without the above =C2=AD or put anot= her way, > > I can't see the downside for essentially a few micro switches and > > recognition of some very simple procedures. I'm sure that many will argu= e > > that the alarm as described above is not helpful =C2=AD but take a look a= t the > > picture and ask, is it more likely than not that you would notice this r= ed > > flashing warning as you line up and / or commence a take-off roll? UNLE= SS > > take-off is done without any reference to instruments - but assuming tha= t > > was the case, and canopy is not locked, it presumes both Run-UP and Line= -UP > > checks have also been ignored =C2=AD tends to suggest a different proble= m all > > together. > >=20 > > But at the same time, I absolutely recognise that there will be times wh= en > > no amount of alarms, warnings, procedures won't protect =C2=AD but on ba= lance, I > > find it hard to argue that they won't reduce risk. > >=20 > >=20 > > What I'm doing now > > * Over the last month or so, I have been working up a number of ideas fo= r an > > automatic secondary latching or restraint mechanism. In some cases, pret= ty > > much to the point where CAD drawings could be put together and DXF files= fed > > into a CNC machine. But =C2=AD not so fast. Each idea needs to be screen= ed > > against all the obvious =C2=AD net benefit, reliability, simplicity, ope= rability > > (latter must be from perspectives of a pilot, passenger and rescuer). I'= m > > used to the term HAZOP (hazard and operability assessment) =C2=AD sounds= fancy / > > complex but its pretty straightforward (identify failure modes, operabil= ity > > issues etc=C5=A0 rank as a function of likelihood or probability etc.). = However, > > it does rely on a group of informed persons contributing to make sure th= at, > > as far as is practicable, nothing is missed and the best solution is > > uncovered > > * The geometry and structure of the canopy and hull make for some > > challenges, as does also managing retrofitting something to a shiny > > completed machine =C2=AD but I'm sure it can be done > > * I have as it happens physically seen the SS spring steel device used o= n a > > VariEze =C2=AD it may ultimately be the best solution but right now, my c= oncern > > is over a "rescuer" begin able to quickly find, reach and then operate t= he > > spring steel tab under difficult conditions. Beyond this idea, I have th= us > > far explored ideas ranging from inertia reel seat belt devices attached t= o > > the top of the canopy, electric solenoid operated pins that self latch b= ut > > require power to open (self contained battery!), pneumatic solenoid > > equivalents, and mechanical linkage variants! All have their pro's and > > con's =C2=AD but my "spec" if you like is essentially this:- > >> * Must automatically latch when the canopy is lowered (as some have=20 > >>suggested > >> =C2=AD like a car bonnet safety latch) > >> * Must be obvious and easily operated and released by pilot, passenger o= r > >> rescuer > >> * Must have alternative emergency opening capability (this is the scena= rio > >> where the auto latch does it trick when you put the plane away after a f= ly, > >> and you come along some other day and the normal external release has > >> failed=C5=A0..) > >> * Goes without saying that any device needs to be as simple as it can > >> practically be, and should ideally be relatively easily accommodated wi= thin > >> the geometry / structure of the Legacy so it doesn't become a deterrent= for > >> folks to install / retrofit to an already completed aircraft > > * I need to do a bit more work around some designs / drawings for the ab= ove > > ideas, and then I'd be in a position to share those with the objective a= nd > > working collaboratively to find a solution =C2=AD the more brains and po= unds of > > experience we can bring to bear =C2=AD the better! > > * BUT who knows =C2=AD the conclusion drawn from looking at secondary la= tch ideas > > may very well be that the risks and consequences of installing a seconda= ry > > latch outweigh the perceived benefits =3D> "do nothing". At least the el= ection > > can be a better informed election. As some say, or words to effect=C5=A0= . "If you > > know why you do or don't do something, it might help=C5=A0.. > > * However, the process of dialogue throws up some quite different ideas /= > > approaches / possibilities > >> * Fred Moreno and a colleague have pondered whether damped gas struts t= hat=20 > >>may > >> offer the potential to stop the reported oscillating canopy scenario (m= ost > >> recently observed with VH-ALP) > >> * Is it possible that IF the canopy opens in flight, it only lifts a sm= all > >> amount and is stable (as some have observed and experienced) IF the bal= l is > >> centered; may be, just may be, if there are rapid power changes and / o= r the > >> ball is not way off centre - does the slip invite the air flow to come= up > >> under the canopy and push it up higher (and drop if slip is removed)? > >> * A recent post reports a canopy rises when full power is applied (and I= > >> presume therefore nowhere near becoming airborne?) - may be all Legacy=20= > >>owners > >> need to go out and check that for their aircraft this does occur, becau= se if > >> does, well=C5=A0 pretty much the obvious > >> * Some report no issues if the canopy opens in flight - which surely be= gs=20 > >>the > >> question =C2=AD why do some? So don't we need to try and fathom out wh= y this=20 > >>might > >> be =C2=AD what have some done, but others not? > >=20 > > Anyways =C2=AD I'd like to hear from anyone who wants to work together t= o share > > and develop / assess ideas for a secondary latch (or not as the case may= > > be!) and develop sound (perhaps experience based?) emergency procedures.= May > > be we can split it up =C2=AD a group looking at latches? A group lookin= g at > > emergency procedures / how to fly safely with a canopy open? Any > > volunteers? > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Cheers, > >=20 > > John > > VH-XTZ > >=20 > > John N G Smith > > Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 > > Mobile: +61-409-372-975 > > Email: john@jjts.net.au > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l --Apple-Mail-43675A69-B6A3-4621-9276-0D8F601ADF07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the two micro switches feeding= EFIS or other annunciator is the solution the community should best pursue.=  Matthew Collier of Fibercraft installed this fix on my baggage door (= IVP).  Certainly the critical nature of baggage door failure on my plan= e vs canopy open on yours is simply a world apart, but the effectiveness of t= he system is of HUGE benefit in my case and could be life saving in the Lega= cy world.

The way it works is identical to john Smi= th's canopy system.  There is one micro switch that is activated by pus= hing the door flush with the fuselage.  The second one is a normally cl= osed switch that will fire off the annunciator if the forward door latch doe= s not slide to place.  There is a fwd and rear latch.  The fwd one= is considered more critical as failure here could put the fwd lip of the do= or into the slip stream and rip it off.

My annuncia= tor is on the Vertical Power display unit and it will show a nice red "bagga= ge door" warning if either of the two switches is not in the proper mode as s= oon the VP is powered up.  That means as soon as I get in the aircraft a= nd power up the system I have this persistent, obvious warning sign right in= the box where all my warnings and cautions for the VP show up.  I coul= d add aural warnings and/or blinking signal to that I think.  Might be a= good idea.  So far, it has worked great.  And yes, I have had to g= et back put of the airplane to correct more than once.

<= div>John



Sent from my iPad


On Nov 6, 2013, at 4:29 AM, <marv@lancair.net> wrote:

=



Posted for John Smith <john@jjts.net.au>:

>= ; I have posted on the forum a while back what I had done at that time. Belo= w,
> is an update on that=C5=A0 along with what I'm doing now.
>
> If its helpful to anyone out there= , that's good. If you're entirely happy
> with what you're doing, please still read on as you may well be able to
> provide some valuabl= e insight as to perhaps why nothing else needs to be
> done around "the Legacy Canopy".. or perhaps those that have experienced
> flight w= ith the canopy open =C2=AD what IAS did you fly the aircraft at?  Did you
> leave flaps and gear extended=C5=A0 and so on= , so you can help others understand
> how they might be able safely return for a landing with a canopy open.
>
>
> Current s= tatus
>
> Alarm
> * I have two micro switches installed in series to indicate an issue with
> the canopy
>> * One is u= nder the internal closure handle and unless the handle is in the
>> close position within ~1mm, the switch will not close
>= ;> * The other is within the pilot side cockpit opening joggle at the back of
>> tyne opening, and unless the canopy is seated to within 1= =C2=AD 2mm, the switch
>> will not close
>> * Thus if either the canopy is not seated or the internal handle is not in
>>= closed position, or if there is failure of the switches or wiring, an alarm
>> condition is identified
> * I used to have this alar= m showing up on my annunciator panel top RHS of my
> panel =C2=AD pret= ty useless to be honest when cockpit is flooded with light
> * I am fortu= nate to have dual EFIS units, so all it took was to run another
> wire to the EFIS system, and programme the EFIS to display a large red
&g= t; flashing warning "ALERT =C2=AD CANPY" both pilot side and co-pilot side. This
> accompanied with a "BEEP BEEP" happening in the headsets. =  See attached
> picture of how the visual alarm appears.
>> * If I didn't have EFIS, I would have installed a very b= right LED warning
>> light pilot side and co-pilot side top of panel, along with a very loud
>>buzzer
>> or horn
>= Normal Procedures
> * My Run-Up and Line-Up checks include "CANOPY CLOSED, LOCKED, ALARMS OUT"
> Emergency Procedures
> * I have ac= knowledged that there MAY be an issue with controllability, but I
> don't plan to wait to find out for sure. So I have adopted (with the same> priority as EFATO procedures) a procedure which says "IF CANOPY OPENS AT ANY
> POINT PRIOR TO TAKE-OFF =3D> ABORT =C2=AD DO NOT PRO= CEED AIRBORNE"     Beyond that,
> and not knowing i= f this would work: "IF CANOPY OPENS IN FLIGHT AFTER
> TAKE-OFF =C2=AD MA= INTAIN 140KTS, LEAVE FLAPS / GEAR EXTENDED, CLIMB TO 500ft
> BEFORE POSITIONING FOR APPROACH TO LAND NOT BELOW 100kts"
>
> In my op= inion, no Legacy should fly without the above =C2=AD or put another way,
> I can't see the downside for essentially a few micro switches a= nd
> recognition of some very simple procedures. I'm sure that many will argue
> that the alarm as described above is not helpful =C2=AD b= ut take a look at the
> picture and ask, is it more likely than not th= at you would notice this red
> flashing warning as you line up and &= nbsp;/ or commence a take-off roll? UNLESS
> take-off is done without any reference to instruments - but assuming that
> was the cas= e, and canopy is not locked, it presumes both Run-UP and Line-UP
> checks have also been ignored =C2=AD tends to suggest a different problem al= l
> together.
>
> But at the same time, I absolutely recognise that there will be times when
> no amount of alarms, warning= s, procedures won't protect =C2=AD but on balance, I
> find it hard to= argue that they won't reduce risk.
>
>
> What I'm doing n= ow
> * Over the last month or so, I have been working up a number of ideas for an
> automatic secondary latching or restraint mechanism.= In some cases, pretty
> much to the point where CAD drawings could be put together and DXF files fed
> into a CNC machine. But =C2=AD not= so fast. Each idea needs to be screened
> against all the obvious =C2= =AD net benefit, reliability, simplicity, operability
> (latter must be from p= erspectives of a pilot, passenger and rescuer). I'm
> used to the term HAZOP (hazard and operability assessment) =C2=AD sounds fancy /
>= complex but its pretty straightforward (identify failure modes, operability
> issues etc=C5=A0 rank as a function of likelihood or pro= bability etc.).  However,
> it does rely on a group of infor= med persons contributing to make sure that,
> as far as is practicable, no= thing is missed and the best solution is
> uncovered
> * The geometry and structure of the canopy and hull make for some
> challeng= es, as does also managing retrofitting something to a shiny
> completed machine =C2=AD but I'm sure it can be done
> * I have as it h= appens physically seen the SS spring steel device used on a
> VariEze =C2= =AD it may ultimately be the best solution but right now, my concern
> is o= ver a "rescuer" begin able to quickly find, reach and then operate the
> spring steel tab under difficult conditions. Beyond this idea, I= have thus
> far explored ideas ranging from inertia reel seat belt devices attached to
> the top of the canopy, electric solenoid operate= d pins that self latch but
> require power to open (self contained battery!), pneumatic solenoid
> equivalents, and mechanical linkage va= riants!  All have their pro's and
> con's =C2=AD but my "spe= c" if you like is essentially this:-
>> * Must automatically latch whe= n the canopy is lowered (as some have
>>suggested
>> =C2=AD= like a car bonnet safety latch)
>> * Must be obvious and easily ope= rated and released by pilot, passenger or
>> rescuer
>> * Must have alternative emergency opening capability (this is the scenario>> where the auto latch does it trick when you put the plane away after a fly,
>> and you come along some other day and the normal ex= ternal release has
>> failed=C5=A0..)
>> * Goes without saying that any device needs to be as simple as it can
>> practical= ly be, and should ideally be relatively easily accommodated within
>> the geometry / structure of the Legacy so it doesn't beco= me a deterrent for
>> folks to install / retrofit to an already completed aircraft
> * I need to do a bit more work around some design= s / drawings for the above
> ideas, and then I'd be in a position to share those with the objective and
> working collaboratively to find a= solution =C2=AD the more brains and pounds of
> experience we can bri= ng to bear =C2=AD the better!
> * BUT who knows =C2=AD the conclusion dra= wn from looking at secondary latch ideas
> may very well be that the r= isks and consequences of installing a secondary
> latch outweigh the perceived b= enefits =3D> "do nothing". At least the election
> can be a better informed election. As some say, or words to effect=C5=A0. "If you
> kn= ow why you do or don't do something, it might help=C5=A0..
> * However= , the process of dialogue throws up some quite different ideas /
> approache= s / possibilities
>> * Fred Moreno and a colleague have pondered whether damped gas struts that
>>may
>> offer the potenti= al to stop the reported oscillating canopy scenario (most
>> recently observed with VH-ALP)
>> * Is it possible that IF the cano= py opens in flight, it only lifts a small
>> amount and is stable (as some have observed and experienced) IF the ball is
>> centered;= may be, just may be, if there are rapid power changes and / or the
>> ball is not way off centre -  does the slip invite= the air flow to come up
>> under the canopy and push it up higher (and drop if slip is removed)?
>> * A recent post reports a c= anopy rises when full power is applied (and I
>> presume therefore nowhere near becoming airborne?) - may be all Legacy
>>o= wners
>> need to go out and check that for their aircraft this does occur, because if
>> does, well=C5=A0 pretty much the obvious<= br>>> * Some report no issues if the canopy opens in flight - which surely begs
>>the
>> question =C2=AD why do some? &n= bsp;So don't we need to try and fathom out why this
>>might
>> be =C2=AD what have some done, but others not?=
>
> Anyways =C2=AD I'd like to hear from anyone who wants to w= ork together to share
> and develop / assess ideas for a secondary latch (= or not as the case may
> be!) and develop sound (perhaps experience based?) emergency procedures. May
> be we can split it up =C2=AD a gro= up looking at latches?  A group looking at
> emergency procedures / how to fly safely with a canopy open?     A= ny
> volunteers?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
> VH-XTZ
>
> John N G Smith
> Tel / f= ax:    +61-8-9385-8891
> Mobile:      +61-409-372-975
> Email:&nb= sp;        john@jjts.net.au
>
>

<Canopy Alert.jpg>
= --Apple-Mail-43675A69-B6A3-4621-9276-0D8F601ADF07--