X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:24:54 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-qe0-f54.google.com ([209.85.128.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6579078 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 12:42:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.54; envelope-from=legacyl2k@gmail.com Received: by mail-qe0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 1so6451808qec.41 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:42:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.80.195 with SMTP id u3mr7568682qak.94.1383759730167; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.45.233 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:42:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:42:10 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem From: Mike Larkin X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3dce02bd47c04ea85ab8d --001a11c3dce02bd47c04ea85ab8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jeff, One item you left out on why pilots don't use checklists... THEY ARE TOO LONG! I did a ride a few weeks ago with a guy in a 172 Cessna. The checklist had over 100 items on it. I wouldn't blame any pilot for not using this checklist. A 414 I manage has a checklist with over 80 items on it... In contrast: My test card for a return to service after heavy check on an Airbus 321 only has 30 items on the complete flight test card. Our normal checklist for the same airplane only has 20 items for before taxi, before takoff and before landing combined... General aviation needs to get in the human factors circle.... Human Factors is the real issue here.. Mike Larkin On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:10 AM, wrote: > Not to undermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft > improvements I would also make the following comments. > > Addressing the pilot situation only: > > As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my > observations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows: > > The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather, > they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the > time. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. > There is a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many > documents. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the > checklists yet it is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize > them at all. > > Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuses. > > 1. It takes time and energy. > 2. They have done it many times before. > 3. What could go wrong? > 4. My flight instructor never taught me... > 5. The other pilots do it this way. > > The question from a piloting perspective is...."how do you regard > checklists?" > > If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to and > use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here. > > Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or safeguard > would you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional step > to a checklist you may not use now? > > There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prior > research on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented > by more than about 10% of the population. > > Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine > your habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety > improvements. > > Jeff > LOBO > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail wrote: > > I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. I got to look over an ES > that returned after the door opened in flight. 60% of the R/H H stab was > missing the leading edge. The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail > and the roof of the cabin was badly damaged. > > Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. > > Mike Larkin > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey wrote: > > I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one's > head in the sand. If something is likely to kill, something should be > done. At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just > a few pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation. And to think that > there must be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - > the important features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations > and canopy shapes. And this is not the way to find out that you "just > weren't meant to be a pilot." And to say, "just remember to latch it" just > doesn't cut it. A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood > latches should do the job. As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've > yet to read hundreds of comments from those that have had it happen. > Hoping that Darwin's theory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is > just plain unrealistic. I know, believing that you are better than those > others has a degree of satisfaction associated with it, but does it make > sense? Something needs to be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't > gotten into the act. Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do > something first. No, I'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, > by the way, has it's own door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the > same realm. > Gary Casey > > > From: Mark Sletten > > > I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open > canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really an > event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. > > "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come back > to land before I could finish my trip." > > Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the > transponder either. > > "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded > me, so I turned it on." > > --Mark > > -- Mike Larkin LarkinAviationConsulting LegacyL2K@gmail.com 602-770-6054 --001a11c3dce02bd47c04ea85ab8d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,

One item you left out on why = pilots don't use checklists...=A0 THEY ARE TOO LONG!=A0 I did a ride a = few weeks ago with a guy in a 172 Cessna.=A0 The checklist had over 100 ite= ms on it.=A0 I wouldn't blame any pilot for not using this checklist.= =A0 A 414 I manage has a checklist with over 80 items on it...=A0 In contra= st:=A0 My test card for a return to service after heavy check on an Airbus = 321 only has 30 items on the complete flight test card.=A0 Our normal check= list for the same airplane only has 20 items for before taxi, before takoff= and before landing combined...=A0 General aviation needs to get in the hum= an factors circle....=A0 Human Factors is the real issue here..

Mike Larkin


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:10 AM, <<= a href=3D"mailto:vtailjeff@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">vtailjeff@aol.com= > wrote:
Not to undermi= ne or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft improvements I woul= d also make the following comments.=A0

Addressing the pilot situation only:=A0

<= /div>
As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot exam= iner my observations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as fo= llows:

The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use = checklists. Rather, they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get= missed all of the time. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are= not critical. There is a standard out there for using checklists. it is co= ntained in many documents. One could not pass an FAA check ride without usi= ng the checklists yet it is routine in my industry to observe pilots not ut= ilize them at all.=A0

Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few though= ts or excuses.

1. It takes time and energy.
<= div>2. They have done it many times before.
3. What could go wron= g?
4. My flight instructor never taught me...
5. The other pilo= ts do it this way.

The question from a piloting pe= rspective is...."how do you regard checklists?"=A0

If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trai= ned to and use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned he= re.

Even if there was a solution to put in an addi= tional latch or safeguard would you install it? Would you use it? Would you= add the additional step to a checklist you may not use now?

There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a s= afeguard, but prior research on these safety hardware issues shows it will = not be implemented by more than about 10% of the population.=A0

Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approa= ch. Reexamine your habits, make the necessary changes, and install importan= t safety improvements.

Jeff
LOBO=A0

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:= 29 AM, Mike's Gmail <legacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES.= =A0I got to look over an ES that returned after the door opened in flight.= =A060% of the R/H H stab was missing the leading edge. =A0The empennage wa= s cracked 2/3 around the tail and the roof of the cabin was badly damaged. = =A0 =A0

Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day t= oo.. =A0

Mike Larkin
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013,= at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:

I've read lots of comments o= n this, but most seem to be like putting one's head in the sand. =A0If = something is likely to kill, something should be done. =A0At least three fa= talities is far, far too many to write off as just a few pilots who couldn&= #39;t handle a "tricky" situation. =A0And to think that there mus= t be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the imp= ortant features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and ca= nopy shapes. =A0And this is not the way to find out that you "just wer= en't meant to be a pilot." =A0And to say, "just remember to l= atch it" just doesn't cut it. =A0A secondary latch copied from mil= lions of car's hood latches should do the job. =A0As for "so easy = it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundreds of comments from those that have had it happen. =A0Hoping that Darwin's t= heory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrea= listic. =A0I know, believing that you are better than those others has a de= gree of satisfaction associated with it, but does it make sense? =A0Somethi= ng needs to be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten i= nto the act. =A0Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do something f= irst. =A0No, I'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, by th= e way, has it's own door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the sa= me realm.
Gary Casey


From: Mark Sletten <mwsletten@gmail.com>


I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where = an open
canopy didn't inte= rfere with controllability is because it's not really an
event worth discussing, plus there's an element of= embarrassment.

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy be= fore take-off and had to come back
to land before I could= finish my trip."

Don't really hear too many stories ab= out people forgetting to turn on the
transponder either.

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. A= TC reminded
me, so I turned it on.= "

--Mark
=



--
Mike Larkin
LarkinAviationConsulting
LegacyL2K@gmail.com
602-770-6054 --001a11c3dce02bd47c04ea85ab8d--