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[174.238.97.234]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id rl1sm53974823oeb.7.2013.11.06.09.31.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem References: From: Todd Long Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-67A1A3C7-9A63-4A06-869A-890D8F67DEAE X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11B511) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <2CA945DC-C7C6-4B46-AEF0-084C892CB5F9@gmail.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:31:44 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-67A1A3C7-9A63-4A06-869A-890D8F67DEAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff a question for you about the 10% you think would implement the system. I= 'm guessing that that 10% is probably mostly made up of the safety conscious= minded pilot with good discipline.? Or is it the experimenter/Tinker that n= ever flies anyways? Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. > On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:10, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >=20 > Not to undermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft impr= ovements I would also make the following comments.=20 >=20 > Addressing the pilot situation only:=20 >=20 > As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my o= bservations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows: >=20 > The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather,= they get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the t= ime. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There i= s a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many documen= ts. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it= is routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all.=20 >=20 > Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuses. >=20 > 1. It takes time and energy. > 2. They have done it many times before. > 3. What could go wrong? > 4. My flight instructor never taught me... > 5. The other pilots do it this way. >=20 > The question from a piloting perspective is...."how do you regard checklis= ts?"=20 >=20 > If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to and= use, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here. >=20 > Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or safeguard wo= uld you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional step to a= checklist you may not use now? >=20 > There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prior= research on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented b= y more than about 10% of the population.=20 >=20 > Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine y= our habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety improve= ments. >=20 > Jeff > LOBO=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail wrote: >>=20 >> I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. I got to look over an ES= that returned after the door opened in flight. 60% of the R/H H stab was m= issing the leading edge. The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and t= he roof of the cabin was badly damaged. =20 >>=20 >> Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. =20 >>=20 >> Mike Larkin >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey wrote: >>>=20 >>> I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one= 's head in the sand. If something is likely to kill, something should be do= ne. At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a f= ew pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation. And to think that there= must be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the impo= rtant features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and cano= py shapes. And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant= to be a pilot." And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cut i= t. A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches should do t= he job. As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundred= s of comments from those that have had it happen. Hoping that Darwin's theo= ry has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic. I kno= w, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of satisfact= ion associated with it, but does it make sense? Something needs to be done -= I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act. Sooner or later t= hey will, unless the owners do something first. No, I'm not directly affect= ed, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own door-opening issues, b= ut not proven to be in the same realm. >>> Gary Casey >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Mark Sletten >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an ope= n >>> canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really a= n >>> event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. >>>=20 >>> "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come b= ack >>> to land before I could finish my trip." >>>=20 >>> Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on th= e >>> transponder either. >>>=20 >>> "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded= >>> me, so I turned it on." >>>=20 >>> --Mark --Apple-Mail-67A1A3C7-9A63-4A06-869A-890D8F67DEAE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff a question for you about the 10% y= ou think would implement the system. I'm guessing that that 10% is probably m= ostly made up of the safety conscious minded pilot with good discipline.? Or= is it the experimenter/Tinker that never flies anyways?

Typing and g= rammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone.

On Nov 6, 2013,= at 11:10, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:=

Not to undermine or negate= the great posts about recommended aircraft improvements I would also make t= he following comments. 

Addressing the pilot s= ituation only: 

As a long time CFI and former l= ong time FAA designated pilot examiner my observations from flying with hund= reds of different pilots is as follows:

The overall= GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather, they get in t= he aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the time. Some are c= ritical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There is a standard o= ut there for using checklists. it is contained in many documents. One could n= ot pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it is routine in m= y industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all. 

Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuse= s.

1. It takes time and energy.
2. They h= ave done it many times before.
3. What could go wrong?
4= . My flight instructor never taught me...
5. The other pilots do i= t this way.

The question from a piloting perspectiv= e is...."how do you regard checklists?" 

If yo= u do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to and use, t= hen you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here.

=
Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or saf= eguard would you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional s= tep to a checklist you may not use now?

There is no= perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prior research on t= hese safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented by more than ab= out 10% of the population. 

Aviation safety ha= s always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine your habits, make th= e necessary changes, and install important safety improvements.
Jeff
LOBO 

Sent from my iPad
On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail <legacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES.=  I got to look over an ES that returned after the door opened in fligh= t.  60% of the R/H H stab was missing the leading edge.  The empen= nage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and the roof of the cabin was badly dam= aged.    

Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's h= ave had their day too..  

Mike Larkin

S= ent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey <= casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:<= br>
I've read lots o= f comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one's head in the sand.=  If something is likely to kill, something should be done.  At le= ast three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a few pilots w= ho couldn't handle a "tricky" situation.  And to think that there must b= e some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the important f= eatures of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and canopy shap= es.  And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant t= o be a pilot."  And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cu= t it.  A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches sho= uld do the job.  As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to= read hundreds of comments from those that have had it happen.  Hoping that Darwin's the= ory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic.  = ;I know, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of sat= isfaction associated with it, but does it make sense?  Something needs t= o be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act.  = Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do something first.  No, I= 'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own= door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the same realm.
Gary= Casey


From: Mark Sletten <mwsletten@gmail.com>

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents= where an open
= canopy didn't inter= fere with controllability is because it's not really an
event worth discussing, plus there's an element of emb= arrassment.
"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy befo= re take-off and had to come back
to= land before I could finish my trip."

Don't really hear= too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the
transponder either.

"Hey guys, I f= orgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded
me, so I turned it on."

--Mark<= /span>
= --Apple-Mail-67A1A3C7-9A63-4A06-869A-890D8F67DEAE--