X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 12:10:43 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-m10.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.86] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6578841 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 11:05:03 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.86; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.197]) by omr-m10.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 98A7670178EDF for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.225.37.141] (mobile-166-147-080-180.mycingular.net [166.147.80.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id D2E9AE000128; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:04:23 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EEE51D78-B49B-4BFB-9A20-622114B98842 X-Original-Message-Id: <59656A28-F0AB-4C1A-9F93-33809B54D90F@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 08:04:20 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c5527a68871a09 X-AOL-IP: 166.147.80.180 --Apple-Mail-EEE51D78-B49B-4BFB-9A20-622114B98842 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Not to undermine or negate the great posts about recommended aircraft improv= ements I would also make the following comments.=20 Addressing the pilot situation only:=20 As a long time CFI and former long time FAA designated pilot examiner my obs= ervations from flying with hundreds of different pilots is as follows: The overall GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather, t= hey get in the aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the tim= e. Some are critical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There is= a standard out there for using checklists. it is contained in many document= s. One could not pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it i= s routine in my industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all.=20 Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuses. 1. It takes time and energy. 2. They have done it many times before. 3. What could go wrong? 4. My flight instructor never taught me... 5. The other pilots do it this way. The question from a piloting perspective is...."how do you regard checklists= ?"=20 If you do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to and u= se, then you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here. Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or safeguard woul= d you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional step to a c= hecklist you may not use now? There is no perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prior r= esearch on these safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented by m= ore than about 10% of the population.=20 Aviation safety has always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine yo= ur habits, make the necessary changes, and install important safety improvem= ents. Jeff LOBO=20 Sent from my iPad On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail wrote: > I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES. I got to look over an ES t= hat returned after the door opened in flight. 60% of the R/H H stab was mis= sing the leading edge. The empennage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and th= e roof of the cabin was badly damaged. =20 >=20 > Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's have had their day too.. =20 >=20 > Mike Larkin >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey wrote: >=20 >> I've read lots of comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one'= s head in the sand. If something is likely to kill, something should be don= e. At least three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a fe= w pilots who couldn't handle a "tricky" situation. And to think that there m= ust be some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the import= ant features of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and canopy= shapes. And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant t= o be a pilot." And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cut it.= A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches should do the= job. As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to read hundreds o= f comments from those that have had it happen. Hoping that Darwin's theory h= as already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic. I know, b= elieving that you are better than those others has a degree of satisfaction a= ssociated with it, but does it make sense? Something needs to be done - I'm= really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act. Sooner or later they= will, unless the owners do something first. No, I'm not directly affected,= as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own door-opening issues, but= not proven to be in the same realm. >> Gary Casey >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Mark Sletten >>=20 >>=20 >> I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open= >> canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really a= n >> event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment. >>=20 >> "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come ba= ck >> to land before I could finish my trip." >>=20 >> Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the= >> transponder either. >>=20 >> "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded >> me, so I turned it on." >>=20 >> --Mark --Apple-Mail-EEE51D78-B49B-4BFB-9A20-622114B98842 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Not to undermine or negate= the great posts about recommended aircraft improvements I would also make t= he following comments. 

Addressing the pilot s= ituation only: 

As a long time CFI and former l= ong time FAA designated pilot examiner my observations from flying with hund= reds of different pilots is as follows:

The overall= GA pilot population does not routinely use checklists. Rather, they get in t= he aircraft and start up and go. Items get missed all of the time. Some are c= ritical like doors and canopies some are not critical. There is a standard o= ut there for using checklists. it is contained in many documents. One could n= ot pass an FAA check ride without using the checklists yet it is routine in m= y industry to observe pilots not utilize them at all. 

Why do pilots not use checklists? here are a few thoughts or excuse= s.

1. It takes time and energy.
2. They h= ave done it many times before.
3. What could go wrong?
4= . My flight instructor never taught me...
5. The other pilots do i= t this way.

The question from a piloting perspectiv= e is...."how do you regard checklists?" 

If yo= u do not use good habits like many pro crews have been trained to and use, t= hen you are at a higher risk like the Legacys mentioned here.

=
Even if there was a solution to put in an additional latch or saf= eguard would you install it? Would you use it? Would you add the additional s= tep to a checklist you may not use now?

There is no= perfect solution here. I support adding a safeguard, but prior research on t= hese safety hardware issues shows it will not be implemented by more than ab= out 10% of the population. 

Aviation safety ha= s always been a belt and suspenders approach. Reexamine your habits, make th= e necessary changes, and install important safety improvements.
Jeff
LOBO 

Sent from my iPad
On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Mike's Gmail <legacyl2k@gmail.com> wrote:

I beg to differ about the door issue on the ES.=  I got to look over an ES that returned after the door opened in fligh= t.  60% of the R/H H stab was missing the leading edge.  The empen= nage was cracked 2/3 around the tail and the roof of the cabin was badly dam= aged.    

Cargo doors on the 4p and ES's h= ave had their day too..  

Mike Larkin

S= ent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Gary Casey <= casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:<= br>
I've read lots o= f comments on this, but most seem to be like putting one's head in the sand.=  If something is likely to kill, something should be done.  At le= ast three fatalities is far, far too many to write off as just a few pilots w= ho couldn't handle a "tricky" situation.  And to think that there must b= e some sort of build defficiency doesn't make sense either - the important f= eatures of the aircraft are almost identical - pin locations and canopy shap= es.  And this is not the way to find out that you "just weren't meant t= o be a pilot."  And to say, "just remember to latch it" just doesn't cu= t it.  A secondary latch copied from millions of car's hood latches sho= uld do the job.  As for "so easy it's not worth discussing" I've yet to= read hundreds of comments from those that have had it happen.  Hoping that Darwin's the= ory has already weeded out the "bad" pilots is just plain unrealistic.  = ;I know, believing that you are better than those others has a degree of sat= isfaction associated with it, but does it make sense?  Something needs t= o be done - I'm really surprised the NTSB hasn't gotten into the act.  = Sooner or later they will, unless the owners do something first.  No, I= 'm not directly affected, as I drive an ES - which, by the way, has it's own= door-opening issues, but not proven to be in the same realm.
Gary= Casey


From: Mark Sletten <mwsletten@gmail.com>

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents= where an open
= canopy didn't inter= fere with controllability is because it's not really an
event worth discussing, plus there's an element of emb= arrassment.
"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy befo= re take-off and had to come back
to= land before I could finish my trip."

Don't really hear= too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the
transponder either.

"Hey guys, I f= orgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded
me, so I turned it on."

--Mark<= /span>
= --Apple-Mail-EEE51D78-B49B-4BFB-9A20-622114B98842--