X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 07:24:45 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm16-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.47] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6577978 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:03:51 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.47; envelope-from=flycassutts@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.100.112] by nm16.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 23:03:17 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.58] by tm103.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 23:03:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp209.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 23:03:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 67986.98117.bm@smtp209.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: P5_hdaUVM1kexpu65TeRfHsOoXRuTnvsBMogA4GI_YLA6E0 sj0vLbuodcNZtz1EnWf7ApE63252obvpdemQIz.TrM_AXhEY_YBMLSn7pbXN UrfWA1KqbDKkBRw04YoTQq_Ayhyuw5WUqX6iXzsnSSBJCevHozUT8UejSWss EYJncAMijGrFHLmGS5CibLwBarb2m3bj2_KHFsyPunBXi1E2MehIHEa7X1FM S6QKuLUvqGuu5F15gzNUMcGwBSMYM1YTLKo6tepVxq1kZP0x2qRsIuRiEHwr B9dQp5x5uh4RsywzenmLeuQ4mJKOMGrCPAQdDPPNHt37S2M6wW9JPWHgw9qS NEB4lRiM6FiE..MnSUk_mYAhGMvUIYr8xyRFgyb46zRBJwrxAtZ.IJXQ0_BN UoN2gDuNdh.nnJuktyxw2BVujwBVomo75PLHY..Ueev3ic_ljU421a8A1qCH 9y14HCC7SQfprwHsJtRFeCht9_.4CA1ugzymsK5HurPTefbQGyHWibaQtEek BfosMubiNrPRruTJSPZZD02JREcZ9EJ.2dcnrJ9OXf5OHXJJ_wqwqzyRabj4 - X-Yahoo-SMTP: dLaMIUmswBCkbwTeGmAXbmPRif0K_4ZI X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.0.7] (flycassutts@174.29.106.167 with ) by smtp209.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Nov 2013 23:03:16 +0000 UTC Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy - Follow-up References: From: Art Jensen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7CCAE330-D467-4750-B16E-C4A7F8FB502B X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11B511) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <852371A8-5179-4906-9A05-0D6DF8EA438F@yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 16:03:12 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-7CCAE330-D467-4750-B16E-C4A7F8FB502B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had the same thing happen to me. The fact that the canopy seal was on= required more pressure to lift the canopy during the take off roll. It actu= ally opened as I rotated. I immediately cut power before becoming airborne. H= ad this happened on a 3000 foot strip I would have probably gone off the end= of the runway. I too had a check list, was properly trained etc. yet becaus= e of the very thing a pilot cannot afford to be caught, being in a hurry and= distractions almost became a statistic. I'd like to think that this could n= ever happen to me again. I actually double check that the canopy is locked b= efore entering the runway now.=20 Just thought I'd share.=20 Art Legacy 927J Sent from my iPhone; Art Jensen > On Nov 5, 2013, at 2:58 PM, "Douglas Brunner" wrote: >=20 > I have gone down the runway with the canopy unlatched. Before I got to ta= keoff speed the canopy made the fact that it was open known. We simply slow= ed down and pulled off the runway, taxied back, closed the canopy and took o= ff. A non-event. > =20 > Question: > =20 > Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that your canopy is unlatched make itself known e= ither during runup or during the takeoff roll? > =20 > D. Brunner > Legacy N241DB 700 hours > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Eri= k Larson > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:14 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Legacy Canopy - Follow-up > =20 > I appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some d= on't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still think it IS!!= ! > =20 > One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting to t= urn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens all the t= ime" and is an "event not worth discussing". > =20 > In that regard, could anyone come forward and state, unequivocally, that t= hey have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the canopy unl= atched and had it be a "non-event".... ANYONE? > =20 > Other's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of checklists= ......but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect storm". You will methodica= lly go through your checklist in the run-up area....checking and re-checking= everything (controls, fuel, trim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is crac= ked OPEN for ventilation. You are holding short of the runway (canopy still= cracked) and then on that one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediate Ta= keoff".... you perhaps have a "below the line" checklist or flow pattern but= you're tired or it gets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKED. Perhaps= unlike anything else in the Legacy...there is NO going back ....no second c= hance to correct your mistake ..... you are along for the ride....and from e= verything I've read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see below) > =20 > As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does have a fairly sophisticated take= off warning system that backs up two well trained pilots with strict use of c= hecklists and yet STILL monitors 5 "must have" items for takeoff, as a backu= p, because there is simply NO second chance with missing any those items. > =20 > I still maintain that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is empl= oyed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a fairly c= omplicated micro-switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking mechanism...= ...with an audio AND visual warning that hopefully triggers when a set groun= d speed or airspeed is met. > =20 > If you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you ALWAYS use a= checklist and are a VERY good pilot with VERY disciplined procedures..... > please......think again and...... best of luck!!! > =20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Erik Larson > Legacy / N74FX=20 > =20 > On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks wrote: > =20 > Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canop= y. > =20 > My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read somewhere p= reviously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be corrected, espec= ially from those who have been there and done that. > =20 > Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thank= s again. > =20 > Gary > =20 > **************************************************************************= **************************** >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" wr= ote: >=20 > I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence. The Le= gacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched! If you take off wit= h the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I did! You MAY not damage t= he plane=E2=80=A6I did! Several others have not survived. It is a harrowin= g experience! I now check the canopy latch several times before each takeof= f! > =20 > When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off t= he canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts helpi= ng you. So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop up and go all th= e way or nearly to the stops. This action blanks off the elevator and you l= ose pitch control. The canopy then is blown back down and you temporarily r= egain pitch control before it is sucked back up for another round. By the t= ime it is headed back up the second time, you had better have the power off a= nd using that short instance of pitch control to get the plane either on the= ground or close enough for a hard landing. If this happened at 100 feet or= so, flowers would be in order. > =20 > It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it wo= uld only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of prop bla= st would put you back into this regime. I don=E2=80=99t recommend trying an= y of it. Latch the damn canopy! > =20 > Bill B > =20 > =20 > **************************************************************************= **************************** > =20 > Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you don'= t follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off positi= on prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. The very= first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former. The club had a ru= le to turn off the fuel when finished. This particular type would allow you= to taxi all the way to the runway and get to about 100 feet before the engi= ne would quit. Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the proper pl= ace on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistles" to p= revent an error here. Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill you... Us= e a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort. You"ll live longer= and be able to tell your stories over beers form many years. > =20 > Mike Larkin... > =20 > **************************************************************************= **************************** > =20 > I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open c= anopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really an ev= ent worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment.=20 > =20 > "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come bac= k to land before I could finish my trip." > =20 > Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the t= ransponder either. > =20 > "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded m= e, so I turned it on." > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-7CCAE330-D467-4750-B16E-C4A7F8FB502B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have had the same thing happen to me= . The fact that the canopy seal was on required more pressure to lift the ca= nopy during the take off roll. It actually opened as I rotated. I immediatel= y cut power before becoming airborne. Had this happened on a 3000 foot strip= I would have probably gone off the end of the runway. I too had a check lis= t, was properly trained etc. yet because of the very thing a pilot cannot af= ford to be caught, being in a hurry and distractions almost became a statist= ic. I'd like to think that this could never happen to me again. I actually d= ouble check that the canopy is locked before entering the runway now. <= /div>

Just thought I'd share. 

<= div>Art
Legacy 927J

Sent from my iPhone; Art Jensen

On Nov 5, 2013, at 2:58 PM, "Douglas Brunner" <douglasbrunner@earthlink.net> wrote:
=

I have gone down the runway with the cano= py unlatched.  Before I got to takeoff speed the canopy made the fact t= hat it was open known.  We simply slowed down and pulled off the runway= , taxied back, closed the canopy and took off.  A non-event.=

 

Question:<= /o:p>

 =

Doesn=E2=80= =99t the fact that your canopy is unlatched make itself known either during r= unup or during the takeoff roll?

 

D. Brunner

Legacy N241DB 700 hours

 <= /p>

From: La= ncair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf Of Erik Larson
Sent: Tuesday, N= ovember 05, 2013 1:14 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Legacy Canopy - Follo= w-up

 

=

I appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some= don't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still think it IS= !!!

 

One po= ster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting to turn on y= our transponder after take off because it "probably happens all the time" an= d is an "event not worth discussing".

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:#FCFCFC"> 

In that regard, could anyone come forward a= nd state, unequivocally, that they have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (= not 230/320/360) with the canopy unlatched and had it be a "non-event".... A= NYONE?

 

=

Ot= her's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of checklists....= ..but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect storm".  You will methodic= ally go through your checklist in the run-up area....checking and re-checkin= g everything (controls, fuel, trim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is cra= cked OPEN for ventilation.  You are holding short of the runway (canopy= still cracked) and then on that one fateful day you are cleared for "Immedi= ate Takeoff".... you perhaps have a "below the line" checklist or flow patte= rn but you're tired or it gets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKED. &n= bsp;Perhaps unlike anything else in the Legacy...there is NO going back ....= no second chance to correct your mistake ..... you are along for the ride...= .and from everything I've read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see below)

 

As Mike Larki= n mentioned, the Airbus does have a fairly sophisticated takeoff w= arning system that backs up two well trained pilots with strict use of check= lists and yet STILL monitors 5 "must have" items for takeoff, as a backup, b= ecause there is simply NO second chance with missing any those items.

 

I still maintai= n that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is employed on the the V= ari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a fairly complicated micro= -switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking mechanism......with an audio= AND visual warning that hopefully triggers when a set ground speed or airsp= eed is met.

 

=

If you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you ALWAYS use= a checklist and are a VERY good pilot with VERY disciplined procedures= .....

please......think again and...... best o= f luck!!!

 

 

Regards,

 

Erik Larson

Legacy / N74FX 

 

 

Many thanks Bill for sharing that first h= and account of an unlatched canopy.

&nb= sp;

My comment was a reflection of what I had been= told or had read somewhere previously (not from actual experience) and I am= happy to be corrected, especially from those who have been there and done t= hat.

 

=

= Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thanks a= gain.

 

Gary

 

*= ****************************************************************************= *************************

Sent from my= iPad


On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sen= tence.  The Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched= !  If you take off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I= did!  You MAY not damage the plane=E2=80=A6I did!  Several ot= hers have not survived.  It is a harrowing experience!  I now chec= k the canopy latch several times before each takeoff!

 <= o:p>

When the canopy is closed it takes a little ext= ra force to move it up off the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and y= ou have the gas struts helping you.  So at about 60 knots, the canopy w= ill suddenly pop up and go all the way or nearly to the stops.  This ac= tion blanks off the elevator and you lose pitch control.  The canopy th= en is blown back down and you temporarily regain pitch control before it is s= ucked back up for another round.  By the time it is headed back up the s= econd time, you had better have the power off and using that short instance o= f pitch control to get the plane either on the ground or close enough for a h= ard landing.  If this happened at 100 feet or so, flowers would be in o= rder.

 

It is possible that= you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it would only open a few i= nches, but when you tried to land, the lack of prop blast would put you back= into this regime.  I don=E2=80=99t recommend trying any of it.  L= atch the damn canopy!

 

=

Bil= l B

 =

 

*= ****************************************************************************= *************************

 

Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if y= ou don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off= position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. &n= bsp;The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former.  = The club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished.  This particula= r type would allow you to taxi all the way to the runway and get to about 10= 0 feet before the engine would quit.  Secondly example, If you don't pu= t the trim in the proper place on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checkli= st, bells and whistles" to prevent an error= here.  Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill you...  Use a c= hecklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort.  You"ll live longer= and be able to tell your stories over beers form many years.

 

Mike Larkin.= ..

 

*********************= ****************************************************************************= *****

 

I strongly suspect the reason w= e don't hear about incidents where an open canopy didn't interfere with cont= rollability is because it's not really an event worth discussing, plu= s there's an element of embarrassment. 

 

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy= before take-off and had to come back to land before I could finish my trip.= "

 

Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on th= e transponder either.

 

"Hey guys, I forgot t= urn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded me, so I turned it on."<= /b>

 

=

 

= --Apple-Mail-7CCAE330-D467-4750-B16E-C4A7F8FB502B--