X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 16:58:10 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6577941 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 16:52:58 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.70; envelope-from=douglasbrunner@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=TItp5n07px4ycfz/w8ZkHaohffBY2qN1KEuL5FL1mxjtCPPLM4X++XXmU5mtokjv; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [67.8.30.30] (helo=DougsVAIO) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1VdoXx-0005c1-8k for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 16:52:25 -0500 From: "Douglas Brunner" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Legacy Canopy - Follow-up X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 16:52:28 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <009401ceda71$52921cb0$f7b65610$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0095_01CEDA47.69BC14B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac7aUvTT/C6cEbUbRY2CXdIG1s/9HAAHePrw Content-Language: en-us X-ELNK-Trace: ad85a799c4f5de37c2eb1477c196d22294f5150ab1c16ac0eab4a5d23dc2aa85fdd51bd8a63a1c40888d13ec43731c4b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.8.30.30 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01CEDA47.69BC14B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have gone down the runway with the canopy unlatched. Before I got to = takeoff speed the canopy made the fact that it was open known. We = simply slowed down and pulled off the runway, taxied back, closed the = canopy and took off. A non-event. =20 Question: =20 Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that your canopy is unlatched make itself known = either during runup or during the takeoff roll? =20 D. Brunner Legacy N241DB 700 hours =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Erik Larson Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:14 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Legacy Canopy - Follow-up =20 I appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... = some don't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still = think it IS!!! =20 One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting = to turn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens = all the time" and is an "event not worth discussing". =20 In that regard, could anyone come forward and state, unequivocally, that = they have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the = canopy unlatched and had it be a "non-event".... ANYONE? =20 Other's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of = checklists......but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect storm". You = will methodically go through your checklist in the run-up = area....checking and re-checking everything (controls, fuel, trim, = etc.)....all the while the canopy is cracked OPEN for ventilation. You = are holding short of the runway (canopy still cracked) and then on that = one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediate Takeoff".... you perhaps = have a "below the line" checklist or flow pattern but you're tired or it = gets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKED. Perhaps unlike anything = else in the Legacy...there is NO going back ....no second chance to = correct your mistake ..... you are along for the ride....and from = everything I've read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see below) =20 As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does have a fairly sophisticated = takeoff warning system that backs up two well trained pilots with strict = use of checklists and yet STILL monitors 5 "must have" items for = takeoff, as a backup, because there is simply NO second chance with = missing any those items. =20 I still maintain that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is = employed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a = fairly complicated micro-switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking = mechanism......with an audio AND visual warning that hopefully triggers = when a set ground speed or airspeed is met. =20 If you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you ALWAYS = use a checklist and are a VERY good pilot with VERY disciplined = procedures..... please......think again and...... best of luck!!! =20 =20 Regards, =20 Erik Larson Legacy / N74FX=20 =20 On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks < = g.weeks550@gmail.com> wrote: =20 Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched = canopy. =20 My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read = somewhere previously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be = corrected, especially from those who have been there and done that. =20 Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. = Thanks again. =20 Gary =20 *************************************************************************= ***************************** Sent from my iPad On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" < = bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote: I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence. The = Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched! If you take = off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I did! You MAY = not damage the plane=E2=80=A6I did! Several others have not survived. = It is a harrowing experience! I now check the canopy latch several = times before each takeoff! =20 When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up = off the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas = struts helping you. So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop = up and go all the way or nearly to the stops. This action blanks off = the elevator and you lose pitch control. The canopy then is blown back = down and you temporarily regain pitch control before it is sucked back = up for another round. By the time it is headed back up the second time, = you had better have the power off and using that short instance of pitch = control to get the plane either on the ground or close enough for a hard = landing. If this happened at 100 feet or so, flowers would be in order. =20 It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it = would only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of = prop blast would put you back into this regime. I don=E2=80=99t = recommend trying any of it. Latch the damn canopy! =20 Bill B =20 =20 *************************************************************************= ***************************** =20 Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you = don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the = off position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to = takeoff. The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the = former. The club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished. This = particular type would allow you to taxi all the way to the runway and = get to about 100 feet before the engine would quit. Secondly example, = If you don't put the trim in the proper place on an Airbus it will not = fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistles" to prevent an error here. = Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill you... Use a checklist, = dummy light, warning system of some sort. You"ll live longer and be = able to tell your stories over beers form many years. =20 Mike Larkin... =20 *************************************************************************= ***************************** =20 I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an = open canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not = really an event worth discussing, plus there's an element of = embarrassment. =20 =20 "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come = back to land before I could finish my trip." =20 Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on = the transponder either. =20 "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded = me, so I turned it on." =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01CEDA47.69BC14B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have gone down the runway with the canopy unlatched.=C2=A0 Before I = got to takeoff speed the canopy made the fact that it was open = known.=C2=A0 We simply slowed down and pulled off the runway, taxied = back, closed the canopy and took off.=C2=A0 A = non-event.

 

Question:

 

Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that your canopy is unlatched make itself = known either during runup or during the takeoff = roll?

 

D. Brunner

Legacy N241DB 700 hours

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Erik Larson
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:14 = PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Legacy = Canopy - Follow-up

 

I= appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some = don't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still think it = IS!!!

<= o:p> 

O= ne poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting to = turn on your transponder after take off because it "probably = happens all the time" and is an "event not worth = discussing".

<= o:p> 

I= n that regard, could anyone come forward and state, unequivocally, = that they have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the = canopy unlatched and had it be a "non-event".... = ANYONE?

<= o:p> 

O= ther's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of = checklists......but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect = storm".  You will methodically go through your checklist in = the run-up area....checking and re-checking everything (controls, fuel, = trim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is cracked OPEN for ventilation. =  You are holding short of the runway (canopy still cracked) and = then on that one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediate = Takeoff".... you perhaps have a "below the line" = checklist or flow pattern but you're tired or it gets rushed and you = forget the canopy - LOCKED.  Perhaps unlike anything else in the = Legacy...there is NO going back ....no second chance to correct your = mistake ..... you are along for the ride....and from everything I've = read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see = below)

<= o:p> 

A= s Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does have a = fairly sophisticated takeoff warning system that backs up two = well trained pilots with strict use of checklists and yet STILL monitors = 5 "must have" items for takeoff, as a backup, because there is = simply NO second chance with missing any those = items.

<= o:p> 

I= still maintain that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is = employed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a = fairly complicated micro-switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking = mechanism......with an audio AND visual warning that hopefully triggers = when a set ground speed or airspeed is = met.

<= o:p> 

I= f you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you = ALWAYS use a checklist and are a VERY good pilot with = VERY disciplined procedures.....

p= lease......think again and...... best of = luck!!!

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

R= egards,

<= o:p> 

E= rik Larson

L= egacy / N74FX 

<= o:p> 

On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks <<= a href=3D"mailto:g.weeks550@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g.weeks550@gmail.com> wrote:<= o:p>

 

Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched = canopy.

 

My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read = somewhere previously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be = corrected, especially from those who have been there and done = that.

 

Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. = Thanks again.

 

Gary

 

*= *************************************************************************= ****************************

Sent from my iPad<= o:p>


On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net= > wrote:

I = am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence.  = The Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched!  = If you take off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I = did!  You MAY not damage the plane=E2=80=A6I did!  Several = others have not survived.  It is a harrowing experience!  I = now check the canopy latch several times before each = takeoff!

&n= bsp;

Wh= en the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off = the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts = helping you.  So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop up = and go all the way or nearly to the stops.  This action blanks off = the elevator and you lose pitch control.  The canopy then is blown = back down and you temporarily regain pitch control before it is sucked = back up for another round.  By the time it is headed back up the = second time, you had better have the power off and using that short = instance of pitch control to get the plane either on the ground or close = enough for a hard landing.  If this happened at 100 feet or so, = flowers would be in order.

&n= bsp;

It= is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it = would only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of = prop blast would put you back into this regime.  I don=E2=80=99t = recommend trying any of it.  Latch the damn canopy!

&n= bsp;

Bi= ll B

 

 

*= *************************************************************************= ****************************

<= o:p> 

Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you = don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the = off position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to = takeoff.  The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the = former.  The club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished. =  This particular type would allow you to taxi all the way to the = runway and get to about 100 feet before the engine would quit. =  Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the proper place on = an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and = whistles" to prevent an error here. =  Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill you...  Use a = checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort.  You"ll = live longer and be able to tell your stories over beers form many = years.

 

Mike Larkin...

 

*= *************************************************************************= ****************************

 

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an = open canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not = really an event worth discussing, plus there's an element of = embarrassment. 

 

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had = to come back to land before I could finish my = trip."

 

Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on = the transponder either.

 

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC = reminded me, so I turned it = on."

 

 

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