X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 16:55:47 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com ([209.85.223.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6577763 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:47:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.223.182; envelope-from=mwsletten@gmail.com Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id as1so15944250iec.27 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:46:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.62.196 with SMTP id z4mr1870091ich.49.1383680815129; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.226.166 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:46:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:46:55 -0600 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Legacy Canopy - Follow-up From: Mark Sletten X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba614a76783a5504ea734b4d --90e6ba614a76783a5504ea734b4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erik, Regarding your most recent post: *One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting to > turn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens all > the time" and is an "event not worth discussing".* First, I did not say it "probably happens all the time." I do not, in fact, have any data (other than anecdote) on the frequency of such occurrences. Meaningful discussion will not be possible if we put words in each other's mouths. Second, if you inferred from my post that I believe an open canopy that interferes with aircraft control is the equivalent of forgetting to turn on the transponder then I wasn't clear. That's NOT what I meant. What I meant is you likely haven't heard reports of uneventful open canopy incidents because if such an occurrence truly IS uneventful (i.e. it caused no problems with aircraft control) the pilot will likely not bother to report it, precisely because it was a nonevent. In that case, it would be much like forgetting any other non-critical checklist item, such as taking off with the transponder in standby. We have yet to establish definitively there is a problem here that needs a solution. I'm hesitant to accept anecdote over the kit manufacturer's word. Human perceptions are far from perfect in the best of circumstances. Add a bit of emergency-induced adrenaline to the mix and perception/recollection can get very fuzzy indeed. Here are a couple of old posts to the LML I was able to dredge up. First is from Charley Brown regarding an incident where the latch mechanism on one side of his canopy failed in-flight. This suggests it's possible for the Legacy canopy to open in-flight even if properly latched before take-off. It's not entirely clear from the post whether this incident was caused by poor design or incorrect build. http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message/59487.html?Language=3D This second is from Dennis Johnson who claims first-hand knowledge of at least one Legacy pilot who successfully and safely flew his aircraft with the canopy open. Dennis also says he's had numerous discussions with other Legacy pilots and believes these occurrences are common. http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message/50092.html?Language=3D There are many, many things we could possibly do to mitigate poor checklist discipline, but everything involves trade-offs. For my own part, I would be leery about adding complexity with a secondary latching system, especially when a warning light is fairly easy to implement (a quick search of the LML yields many ideas). I agree that a canopy open light doesn't prevent takeoff with the canopy open, but a failure of the light wouldn't further compromise safety. I would urge we first determine there is a problem worth seeking a solution for before introducing complexity and unknown failure modes to something critical like our only emergency egress route. Respectfully, --Mark On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Erik Larson wrote: > I appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some > don't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still think it > IS!!! > > One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting > to turn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens a= ll > the time" and is an "event not worth discussing". > > In that regard, could anyone come forward and state, unequivocally, that > they have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the canopy > unlatched and had it be a "non-event".... ANYONE? > > Other's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of > checklists......but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect storm". You > will methodically go through your checklist in the run-up area....checkin= g > and re-checking everything (controls, fuel, trim, etc.)....all the while > the canopy is cracked OPEN for ventilation. You are holding short of the > runway (canopy still cracked) and then on that one fateful day you are > cleared for "Immediate Takeoff".... you perhaps have a "below the line" > checklist or flow pattern but you're tired or it gets rushed and you forg= et > the canopy - LOCKED. Perhaps unlike anything else in the Legacy...there = is > NO going back ....no second chance to correct your mistake ..... you are > along for the ride....and from everything I've read..... it's NOT going t= o > be fun. (see below) > > As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does have a > fairly sophisticated takeoff warning system that backs up two well traine= d > pilots with strict use of checklists and yet STILL monitors 5 "must have" > items for takeoff, as a backup, because there is simply NO second chance > with missing any those items. > > I still maintain that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is > employed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a > fairly complicated micro-switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking > mechanism......with an audio AND visual warning that hopefully triggers > when a set ground speed or airspeed is met. > > If you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you ALWAYS > use a checklist and are a VERY good pilot with VERY disciplined > procedures..... > please......think again and...... best of luck!!! > > > Regards, > > Erik Larson > Legacy / N74FX > > On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks wrote: > > Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched > canopy. > > My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read > somewhere previously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be > corrected, especially from those who have been there and done that. > > Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. > Thanks again. > > Gary > > > *************************************************************************= ***************************** > > Sent from my iPad > > On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" > wrote: > > I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence. *Th= e > Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched! If you take of= f > with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=85I did! You MAY not damage t= he > plane=85I did! * Several others have not survived. It is a harrowing > experience! I now check the canopy latch several times before each takeo= ff! > > When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off > the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts > helping you. So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop up and g= o > all the way or nearly to the stops. This action blanks off the elevator > and you lose pitch control. The canopy then is blown back down and you > temporarily regain pitch control before it is sucked back up for another > round. By the time it is headed back up the second time, you had better > have the power off and using that short instance of pitch control to get > the plane either on the ground or close enough for a hard landing. If th= is > happened at 100 feet or so, flowers would be in order. > > It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it > would only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of pro= p > blast would put you back into this regime. I don=92t recommend trying an= y of > it. Latch the damn canopy! > > Bill B > > > > *************************************************************************= ***************************** > > > Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you > don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off > position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. > The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former. The > club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished. This particular type > would allow you to taxi all the way to the runway and get to about 100 fe= et > before the engine would quit. Secondly example, If you don't put the tri= m > in the proper place on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bell= s > and whistles" to prevent an error here. Bottom line, if your careless, > it can kill you... Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some > sort. You"ll live longer and be able to tell your stories over beers for= m > many years. > > Mike Larkin... > > > *************************************************************************= ***************************** > > > I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an > open canopy didn't interfere with controllability is *because it's not > really an event worth discussing, *plus there's an element of > embarrassment. > > "*Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come > back to land before I could finish my trip."* > > *Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on > the transponder either.* > > "*Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC > reminded me, so I turned it on."* > > > --90e6ba614a76783a5504ea734b4d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Erik,

Regarding your most recent post:<= /div>

One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting t= o turn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens= all the time" and is an "event not worth discussing".

First, I did not say it "probably happens all the = time." I do not, in fact, have any data (other than anecdote) on the f= requency of such occurrences. Meaningful discussion will not be possible if= we put words in each other's mouths.

Second, if you inferred from my post that I believe an = open canopy that interferes with aircraft control is the equivalent of forg= etting to turn on the transponder then I wasn't clear. That's NOT w= hat I meant. What I meant is you likely haven't heard reports of uneven= tful open canopy incidents because if such an occurrence truly IS uneventfu= l (i.e. it caused no problems with aircraft control) the pilot will likely = not bother to report it, precisely because it was a nonevent. In that case,= it would be much like forgetting any other non-critical checklist item, su= ch as taking off with the transponder in standby.

We have yet to establish definitively there is a proble= m here that needs a solution. I'm hesitant to accept anecdote over the = kit manufacturer's word. Human perceptions are far from perfect in the = best of circumstances. Add a bit of emergency-induced adrenaline to the mix= and perception/recollection can get very fuzzy indeed.

Here are a couple of old posts to the LML I was able to= dredge up. First is from Charley Brown regarding an incident where the lat= ch mechanism on one side of his canopy failed in-flight. This suggests it&#= 39;s possible for the Legacy canopy to open in-flight even if properly latc= hed before take-off. It's not entirely clear from the post whether this= incident was caused by poor design or incorrect build.


This second is from Dennis Johnson= who claims first-hand knowledge of at least one Legacy pilot who successfu= lly and safely flew his aircraft with the canopy open. Dennis also says he&= #39;s had numerous discussions with other Legacy pilots and believes these = occurrences are common.


There are many, many things we co= uld possibly do to mitigate poor checklist discipline, but everything invol= ves trade-offs.=A0For my own part, I would be leery about adding complexity= with a secondary latching system, especially when a warning light is fairl= y easy to implement (a quick search of the LML yields many ideas). I agree = that a canopy open light doesn't prevent takeoff with the canopy open, = but a failure of the light wouldn't further compromise safety. I would = urge we first determine there is a problem worth seeking a solution for bef= ore introducing complexity and unknown failure modes to something critical = like our only emergency egress route.

Respectfully,

--Mark




On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Erik Larson <asw20747= @aol.com> wrote:
I appreciate the continued discussion of = the Legacy Canopy issue.... some don't think it's a big deal.... ot= hers, including myself, still think it IS!!!

One poster went so far as to equate it to= nothing more than forgetting to turn on your transponder after take off be= cause it "probably happens all the time" and is=A0an "even= t not worth discussing".

In that regard, could anyone come forward= and state,=A0unequivocally, that they have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (= not 230/320/360) with the canopy unlatched and had it be a "non-event&= quot;.... ANYONE?

Other's have said it's just a sim= ple matter of judicious use of checklists......but this canopy issue is, IM= HO, a "perfect storm". =A0You will methodically go through your c= hecklist in the run-up area....checking and re-checking everything (control= s, fuel, trim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is cracked OPEN for ventil= ation. =A0You are holding short of the runway (canopy still cracked) and th= en on that one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediate Takeoff"= ;.... you perhaps have a "below the line" checklist or flow patte= rn but you're tired or it gets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKE= D. =A0Perhaps unlike anything else in the Legacy...there is NO going back .= ...no second chance to correct your mistake ..... you are along for the rid= e....and from everything I've read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (= see below)

As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does= have a fairly=A0sophisticated=A0takeoff warning system that backs up two w= ell trained pilots with strict use of checklists and yet STILL monitors 5 &= quot;must have" items for takeoff, as a backup, because there is simpl= y NO second chance with missing any those items.

I still maintain that some fairly simple = backup canopy latch, like is employed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy= might be the answer vs. a fairly complicated micro-switch or switches, tie= d to the canopy locking mechanism......with an audio AND visual warning tha= t hopefully triggers when a set ground speed or airspeed is met.

If you don't think it can.... "h= appen to you"..... because you ALWAYS use a checklist and are a VERY g= ood pilot with VERY=A0disciplined procedures.....
please......think again and...... best of= luck!!!


Regards,

Erik Larson
Legacy / N74FX=A0

On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks <g.weeks550@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canop= y.

My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read somewhere = previously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be corrected, esp= ecially from those who have been there and done that.

Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thank= s again.

Gary

**************************= ***************************************************************************= *

Sent from my iPad

On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrot= e:

I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third s= entence.=A0 The Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched= !=A0 If you take off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=85I did!=A0= You MAY not damage the plane=85I did!=A0 Several others have not survi= ved.=A0 It is a harrowing experience!=A0 I now check the canopy latch sever= al times before each takeoff!
=A0
When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to= move it up off the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have th= e gas struts helping you.=A0 So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly= pop up and go all the way or nearly to the stops.=A0 This action blanks of= f the elevator and you lose pitch control.=A0 The canopy then is blown back= down and you temporarily regain pitch control before it is sucked back up = for another round.=A0 By the time it is headed back up the second time, you= had better have the power off and using that short instance of pitch contr= ol to get the plane either on the ground or close enough for a hard landing= .=A0 If this happened at 100 feet or so, flowers would be in order.<= u>
=A0
It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise= speed and it would only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the= lack of prop blast would put you back into this regime.=A0 I don=92t recom= mend trying any of it.=A0 Latch the damn canopy!
=A0
Bill B


****************************= **************************************************************************<= /font>

Example of other systems = on other airplanes that will kill you if you don't follow some form of = checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off position prior to takeoff o= r not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. =A0The very first airplane ac= cident I ever witnessed was the former. =A0The club had a rule to turn off = the fuel when finished. =A0This particular type would allow you to taxi all= the way to the runway and get to about 100 feet before the engine would qu= it. =A0Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the proper place = on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistles" to prevent an error here. =A0Bottom line, if your careless, it ca= n kill you... =A0Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort.= =A0You"ll live longer and be able to tell your stories over beers for= m many years.

Mike Larkin...

*******************************= ***********************************************************************

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where= an open canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it&= #39;s not really an event worth discussing, plus there's an element= of embarrassment.=A0

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canop= y before take-off and had to come back to land before I could finish my tri= p."

Don't really hear too many stories abo= ut people forgetting to turn on the transponder either.

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the trans= ponder before takeoff. ATC reminded me, so I turned it on."



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