X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm8-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.23] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6577757 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:20:43 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.23; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.100.118] by nm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 19:20:09 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.233] by tm109.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 19:18:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1033.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2013 19:18:09 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 770049.65460.bm@omp1033.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 60186 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Nov 2013 19:18:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cxLCYzF6My76WfsMdJO+O+pBld2K5kz+kBV4jMHXwSOKpl3MdvouanVuKbg68dI3gI/4fda7pixzO5hI8ssBmy9xgj7ZXG8GVAl/npPbUYeba88qw5fvURhsePsYlPui5sBNHQhZutRcejaDpo3O7tT2fiyjUjyGkerAYn/BX4Y=; X-YMail-OSG: idHuCWIVM1kWq8ZWEdGyha5xprugHV4pOw0GMlC1V9rXPWl HBXIXPjHcOLAr4gcJBKtrvUFsFUd1qRP20Dkje4I4s..5oe2hYWAdIsP.pby 9PDqhM7ph3JmQaJKT1nW5LmgoeC2kIMpuCgt_H16MLoASKJEvA4N6NyqGEhr _I1EK6fFxbEWb0RE9bQF1FbTHICh9jewrohak_AAXu2WeffTYnSG8LL1Mp4M SDP5_T6TnqSOGey7CyRlv1MENJg4EnPLUul_YXM_aKG2kk7X2_G_8QBEywQZ 8Q5iR7t6gxDLKZHzoAL8YsuTbVeslhiK1tGforpfE4Ij_pRdR8f26Ptzfqe5 KQfl7WjBuhnZaALKMssut0EvWCyFkAqwy77eJdMXoQj8cyF_.d2p7.BsSXrX 5IZOd5.cFQh.sT4SQeqRR6yFWROtqp._JfPuR7tUlBq5GYY7rcdko_sfoX2M sPfHSo0xVIrFjgjeJLNs97rb7hZr1MEmCEnA15.2rY1JrdM3Rp_cxxBknfPO Vu01df15GLFvpu3p_exdY8Kwmmr1iuYobi_ZHUEZwSVKou2FO5.pJqVR.YMU W9ivs0nVRVssnLrg9YV0SET4AEsCn.IDfDStOSeVnWpB2Krfe7PsRyOeyNX8 QtUFhnOjwodXWFrb7um2pQaZgQ51Wjco- Received: from [172.14.16.72] by web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:18:09 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2hlbiB0aGlzIHRvcGljIGNhbWUgdXAgbG9uZyBhZ28swqB0aGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gc291bmRlZCBsaWtlIHRoZSBsYXRjaCBhbmQgc3RyaWtlciB3ZXJlIG5vdCBlbmdhZ2luZyBjb3JyZWN0bHkuwqAgVGhpcyBjb3VsZMKgaW5kaWNhdGUgYSBkZXNpZ24gaXNzdWUsIGEgY29uc3RydWN0aW9uIGlzc3VlLCBvciBldmVuIGp1c3QgYW4gYWRqdXN0bWVudCBpc3N1ZS4KSSBkbyByZWNhbGzCoGR1cmluZyBjb25zdHJ1Y3Rpb24gb2YgdGhlIGxhdGNoZXMgb24gdGhlIDM2MCB0aGF0IHRoZSBmaXQgb2YgdGhlIGEBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.161.596 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1383679089.59456.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:18:09 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-2038480821-513267553-1383679089=:59456" ---2038480821-513267553-1383679089=:59456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When this topic came up long ago,=A0the description sounded like the latch = and striker were not engaging correctly.=A0 This could=A0indicate a design = issue, a construction issue, or even just an adjustment issue.=0AI do recal= l=A0during construction of the latches on the 360 that the fit of the actua= l parts did not exactly match the layout in the plans.=A0 If one were to si= mply attach parts per the schematic, the latch would not fully engage the s= triker.=A0 This could have easily led to the canopy popping open given the = right flexing of the fuselage etc.=A0 Some modification was required to mat= ch the intent of the design.=0AI also have a means of pulling=A0down on the= canopy at the top center of the roll-over.=0A=A0=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ= =0A360std=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.net/=A0 =0A=A0=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Tuesday, November= 5, 2013 10:16 AM, Kevin Stallard wrote:=0A =0APaul,= =0A=0AI agree that it isn't appropriate to show disrespect for those who ha= ve been killed in tragic accidents.=A0 I also recognize that flying airplan= es that we build is an inherently risky activity.=A0 No one wants to loose = friends, but we loose them.=A0 My own mother died in a automobile accident = when I was young.=A0 It happens, and yes we want to try to avoid them and l= earn from them, but they still happen.=0A=0AI don't think Mike intended any= disrespect but (perhaps untactfully) was trying to make a point.=A0 I thin= k what he was trying to say is that we need to be careful and be thinking a= bout what we are doing, or it may kill us.=A0 I took it in a tongue-in-chee= k sort of way in that he is reminding me to carefully evaluate my decisions= so I don't do something that would hurt me or someone else.=A0 =A0 =A0 =0A= =0APeter Zaccagnino said it best when he said "I have to remember that thes= e things are trying to kill me."=A0 =0A=0AWhen we try to avoid negative asp= ects of design it is too easy to come up with dumb solutions like plastic g= as cans with those impossible to open spouts.=A0 =A0 I have spilled more ga= soline trying to use those dang things than with the old metal flexing open= spouts.=A0 My point is that it can be easy to over design something. =0A= =0AOn the pilot side of a Cessna 172 Hawker XP (perhaps on others as well) = there is this really dumb seat latch.=A0 You have to not only hold up the l= evel than allows the seat to slide, but you also have to reach behind you a= nd use your thumb to open a secondary latch.=A0 It appears this was added p= erhaps after a seat unintentionally slid back and was a factor in an accide= nt.=A0 It smells like a lawyer designed it.=0A=0ACan you imagine being in a= n accident and having to work both latches to get out of the airplane?=A0 = This is what happens when we try to take the risk out of everything and pla= ce walls of protection around us.=A0 Pretty soon they have either hurt us o= r make it so we can't do what we originally intended.=0A=0A=0AI really like= the current canopy design.=A0 It opens easily.=A0 I really like this featu= re, I feel safer because of it.=A0 =0A=0AThanks=0AKevin=0A=0A______________= __________________________=0AFrom: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf Of Paul Miller [pjdmiller@gmail.com]=0ASent: Tuesday, Novemb= er 05, 2013 9:57 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Legacy= Canopy Problem=0A=0ADo you mean that the people who have had a canopy open= are somehow inferior and wlll be naturally removed because they aren't cut= out to be pilots?=A0 Is that the meaning of your message?=A0 Or is that a = canopy that can be opened is a way of selecting better pilots in this world= .=A0 Please explain your Darwin comment to us.=A0 I really want to know ho= w that works into the problem here.=0A=0APaul=0ALegacy=0A=0APS: for the dol= ts who can't figure it out, there's another mode of canopy opening that won= 't be solved with a checklist on the ground.=A0 Think outside the cabin sh= ould be the first rule on this subject.=0A=0A=0AOn 2013-11-05, at 10:52 AM,= Mike Larkin > wrote:=0A=0A= Well said Kevin....=0A=0AMike=0A=0ARemember, not everyone was meant to fly.= ...=A0 Darwin=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Kevin Stallard > wrote:=0APre-takeoff checklist=0A= =0ATrim, fuel selector, mixture, prop, push up (hard) on the canopy.=A0 (fi= ve plus one)=0A=0AThis isn't a big deal to me.=A0 I don't think drama surr= ounding the canopy is needed or deserved.=0A=0AIt has been shown that while= tricky, the airplane is controllable if you happen to leave the canopy ope= n.=A0 Just don't stop flying the airplane.=A0 Better yet, don't leave it un= locked.=0A=0AKevin=0AN969RJ (flying !!)=0A=0A=0A=0A--=0AFor archives and un= sub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=0A=0A=0A=0A--=0AMi= ke Larkin=0ALarkinAviationConsulting=0ALegacyL2K@gmail.com=0A602-770-6054=0A=0A--=0AFor archives and unsub http://mail.lan= caironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ---2038480821-513267553-1383679089=:59456 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When this = topic came up long ago, the description sounded like the latch and str= iker were not engaging correctly.  This could indicate a design i= ssue, a construction issue, or even just an adjustment issue.
<= div>I do recall during construction of the latches on the 360 th= at the fit of the actual parts did not exactly match the layout in the plan= s.  If one were to simply attach parts per the schematic, the latch wo= uld not fully engage the striker.  This could have easily led to the c= anopy popping open given the right flexing of the fuselage etc.  Some = modification was required to match the intent of the design.
I also have a means of pulling down on the canopy at the top = center of the roll-over.
 
Chris Zava= tson
N91CZ
360std
 


On T= uesday, November 5, 2013 10:16 AM, Kevin Stallard <kevin@arilabs.net>= wrote:
Paul,

I a= gree that it isn't appropriate to show disrespect for those who have been k= illed in tragic accidents.  I also recognize that flying airplanes tha= t we build is an inherently risky activity.  No one wants to loose fri= ends, but we loose them.  My own mother died in a automobile accident when I wa= s young.  It happens, and yes we want to try to avoid them and learn f= rom them, but they still happen.

I don't think Mike intended any dis= respect but (perhaps untactfully) was trying to make a point.  I think= what he was trying to say is that we need to be careful and be thinking ab= out what we are doing, or it may kill us.  I took it in a tongue-in-ch= eek sort of way in that he is reminding me to carefully evaluate my decisio= ns so I don't do something that would hurt me or someone else.   =  

Peter Zaccagnino said it best when he said "I have to remem= ber that these things are trying to kill me." 

When we try to= avoid negative aspects of design it is too easy to come up with dumb solut= ions like plastic gas cans with those impossible to open spouts.  &nbs= p; I have spilled more gasoline trying to use those dang things than with the old metal flexing open spouts.  My point is that it can be e= asy to over design something.

On the pilot side of a Cessna 172 Haw= ker XP (perhaps on others as well) there is this really dumb seat latch.&nb= sp; You have to not only hold up the level than allows the seat to slide, b= ut you also have to reach behind you and use your thumb to open a secondary= latch.  It appears this was added perhaps after a seat unintentionall= y slid back and was a factor in an accident.  It smells like a lawyer = designed it.

Can you imagine being in an accident and having to work= both latches to get out of the airplane?  This is what happens when = we try to take the risk out of everything and place walls of protection aro= und us.  Pretty soon they have either hurt us or make it so we can't d= o what we originally intended.


I really like the current canopy = design.  It opens easily.  I really like this feature, I feel safer because of it. 

Thanks
Kevin

___________= _____________________________
From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Paul Miller [pjdmiller@gmail.com]Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:57 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.= net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem

Do you mean that= the people who have had a canopy open are somehow inferior and wlll be nat= urally removed because they aren't cut out to be pilots?  Is that the = meaning of your message?  Or is that a canopy that can be opened is a = way of selecting better pilots in this world.  Please explain your Da= rwin comment to us.  I really want to know how that works into the pro= blem here.

Paul
Legacy

PS: for the dolts who can't figure it o= ut, there's another mode of canopy opening that won't be solved with a chec= klist on the ground.  Think outside the cabin should be the first rul= e on this subject.


On 2013-11-05, at 10:52 AM, Mike Larkin <<= a href=3D"mailto:legacyl2k@gmail.com" ymailto=3D"mailto:legacyl2k@gmail.com= ">legacyl2k@gmail.com<mailto:legacyl2k@gmail.com>> wrot= e:

Well said Kevin....

Mike

Remember, not everyone was= meant to fly....  Darwin


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 AM, K= evin Stallard <kevin@arilabs.net<mailto:kevin@arilabs.net>&g= t; wrote:
Pre-takeoff checklist

Trim, fuel selector, mixture, pro= p, push up (hard) on the canopy.  (five plus one)

This isn't a big dea= l to me.  I don't think drama surrounding the canopy is needed or des= erved.

It has been shown that while tricky, the airplane is controll= able if you happen to leave the canopy open.  Just don't stop flying t= he airplane.  Better yet, don't leave it unlocked.

Kevin
N96= 9RJ (flying !!)



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Mike= Larkin
LarkinAviationConsulting
LegacyL2K@gmail.com<mailto= :LegacyL2K@gmail.com>
602-770-6054

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