X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:13:48 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.202] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6577615 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:36:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.202; envelope-from=asw20747@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.199]) by omr-d05.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id E783870040696 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-dab004c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dab004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.13.208]) by mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 8B083E000094 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:36:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Legacy Canopy - Follow-up X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Erik Larson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D0A864A6AC8523_D20_119909_Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38135-STANDARD Received: from 108.199.253.243 by Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com (205.188.171.203) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:36:10 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8D0A864A68FF497-D20-58091@Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [108.199.253.243] X-Original-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:36:10 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c752792c8a645f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D0A864A6AC8523_D20_119909_Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I appreciate the continued discussion of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some d= on't think it's a big deal.... others, including myself, still think it IS!= !! One poster went so far as to equate it to nothing more than forgetting to t= urn on your transponder after take off because it "probably happens all the= time" and is an "event not worth discussing". In that regard, could anyone come forward and state, unequivocally, that th= ey have taken off in a Lancair Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the canopy unl= atched and had it be a "non-event".... ANYONE? Other's have said it's just a simple matter of judicious use of checklists.= .....but this canopy issue is, IMHO, a "perfect storm". You will methodica= lly go through your checklist in the run-up area....checking and re-checkin= g everything (controls, fuel, trim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is cr= acked OPEN for ventilation. You are holding short of the runway (canopy st= ill cracked) and then on that one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediat= e Takeoff".... you perhaps have a "below the line" checklist or flow patter= n but you're tired or it gets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKED. P= erhaps unlike anything else in the Legacy...there is NO going back ....no s= econd chance to correct your mistake ..... you are along for the ride....an= d from everything I've read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see below) As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus does have a fairly sophisticated takeo= ff warning system that backs up two well trained pilots with strict use of = checklists and yet STILL monitors 5 "must have" items for takeoff, as a bac= kup, because there is simply NO second chance with missing any those items. I still maintain that some fairly simple backup canopy latch, like is emplo= yed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or Cozy might be the answer vs. a fairly = complicated micro-switch or switches, tied to the canopy locking mechanism.= .....with an audio AND visual warning that hopefully triggers when a set gr= ound speed or airspeed is met. If you don't think it can.... "happen to you"..... because you ALWAYS use a= checklist and are a VERY good pilot with VERY disciplined procedures..... please......think again and...... best of luck!!! Regards, Erik Larson Legacy / N74FX=20 On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks wrote: Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canopy= . My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read somewhere p= reviously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be corrected, espe= cially from those who have been there and done that. Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thanks= again. Gary ***************************************************************************= *************************** Sent from my iPad On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" wro= te: I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence. The Leg= acy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched! If you take off wit= h the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I did! You MAY not damage = the plane=E2=80=A6I did! Several others have not survived. It is a harrow= ing experience! I now check the canopy latch several times before each tak= eoff! =20 When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off t= he canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts help= ing you. So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop up and go all = the way or nearly to the stops. This action blanks off the elevator and yo= u lose pitch control. The canopy then is blown back down and you temporari= ly regain pitch control before it is sucked back up for another round. By = the time it is headed back up the second time, you had better have the powe= r off and using that short instance of pitch control to get the plane eithe= r on the ground or close enough for a hard landing. If this happened at 10= 0 feet or so, flowers would be in order. =20 It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it wou= ld only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of prop bla= st would put you back into this regime. I don=E2=80=99t recommend trying a= ny of it. Latch the damn canopy! =20 Bill B ***************************************************************************= *************************** Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you don't= follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off positi= on prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. The ver= y first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former. The club had a = rule to turn off the fuel when finished. This particular type would allow = you to taxi all the way to the runway and get to about 100 feet before the = engine would quit. Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the prop= er place on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistle= s" to prevent an error here. Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill yo= u... Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort. You"ll li= ve longer and be able to tell your stories over beers form many years. Mike Larkin... ***************************************************************************= *************************** I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open c= anopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really an e= vent worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment.=20 "Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy before take-off and had to come back= to land before I could finish my trip." Don't really hear too many stories about people forgetting to turn on the t= ransponder either. "Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transponder before takeoff. ATC reminded me= , so I turned it on." ----------MB_8D0A864A6AC8523_D20_119909_Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
I appreciate the continued discussio= n of the Legacy Canopy issue.... some don't think it's a big deal.... other= s, including myself, still think it IS!!!

One poster went so far as to equate = it to nothing more than forgetting to turn on your transponder after take o= ff because it "probably happens all the time" and is an "event= not worth discussing".

In that regard, could anyone come fo= rward and state, unequivocally, that they have taken off in a Lancair = Legacy (not 230/320/360) with the canopy unlatched and had it be a "non-eve= nt".... ANYONE?

Other's have said it's just a simple= matter of judicious use of checklists......but this canopy issue is, IMHO,= a "perfect storm".  You will methodically go through your checklist i= n the run-up area....checking and re-checking everything (controls, fuel, t= rim, etc.)....all the while the canopy is cracked OPEN for ventilation. &nb= sp;You are holding short of the runway (canopy still cracked) and then on t= hat one fateful day you are cleared for "Immediate Takeoff".... you perhaps= have a "below the line" checklist or flow pattern but you're tired or it g= ets rushed and you forget the canopy - LOCKED.  Perhaps unlike anythin= g else in the Legacy...there is NO going back ....no second chance to corre= ct your mistake ..... you are along for the ride....and from everything I'v= e read..... it's NOT going to be fun. (see below)

As Mike Larkin mentioned, the Airbus= does have a fairly sophisticated takeoff warning system that bac= ks up two well trained pilots with strict use of checklists and yet STILL m= onitors 5 "must have" items for takeoff, as a backup, because there is simp= ly NO second chance with missing any those items.

I still maintain that some fairly si= mple backup canopy latch, like is employed on the the Vari-eze, Long-eze or= Cozy might be the answer vs. a fairly complicated micro-switch or switches= , tied to the canopy locking mechanism......with an audio AND visual warnin= g that hopefully triggers when a set ground speed or airspeed is met.

If you don't think it can.... "happe= n to you"..... because you ALWAYS use a checklist and are a VERY good pilot= with VERY disciplined procedures.....
please......think again and...... be= st of luck!!!


Regards,

Erik Larson
Legacy / N74FX 

On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks <g.weeks550@gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks = Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canopy.

My comment w= as a reflection of what I had been told or had read somewhere previously (n= ot from actual experience) and I am happy to be corrected, especially from = those who have been there and done that.

Yes we need = to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thanks again.

Gary

**************************= ***************************************************************************= *

Sent from my iPad

On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:=

I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with= that third sentence.  The Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the = canopy unlatched!  If you take off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY = survive=E2=80=A6I did!  You MAY not damage the plane=E2=80=A6I did!&nb= sp; Several others have not survived.  It is a harrowing experienc= e!  I now check the canopy latch several times before each takeoff!
 
When the canopy is closed it takes a little e= xtra force to move it up off the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise an= d you have the gas struts helping you.  So at about 60 knots, the cano= py will suddenly pop up and go all the way or nearly to the stops.  Th= is action blanks off the elevator and you lose pitch control.  The can= opy then is blown back down and you temporarily regain pitch control before= it is sucked back up for another round.  By the time it is headed bac= k up the second time, you had better have the power off and using that shor= t instance of pitch control to get the plane either on the ground or close = enough for a hard landing.  If this happened at 100 feet or so, flower= s would be in order.
 
It is possible that you could unlatch the can= opy at cruise speed and it would only open a few inches, but when you tried= to land, the lack of prop blast would put you back into this regime. = I don=E2=80=99t recommend trying any of it.  Latch the damn canopy!
 
Bill B


*************************************= *****************************************************************

Example of other systems on othe= r airplanes that will kill you if you don't follow some form of checklist: = Leaving the fuel selector in the off position prior to takeoff or not trimm= ing the airplane prior to takeoff.  The very first airplane accident I= ever witnessed was the former.  The club had a rule to turn off the f= uel when finished.  This particular type would allow you to taxi all t= he way to the runway and get to about 100 feet before the engine would quit= .  Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the proper place on = an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistles" to prevent an error here.  Bottom line, if your carele= ss, it can kill you...  Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system o= f some sort.  You"ll live longer and be able to tell your stories over= beers form many years.

Mike Larkin...

*****************************************= *************************************************************

I strongly suspect the reason we don't hear about incidents where an open = canopy didn't interfere with controllability is because it's not really = an event worth discussing, plus there's an element of embarrassment.&nb= sp;

"Hey guys, I forgot to close my canopy b= efore take-off and had to come back to land before I could finish my trip."=

Don't really hear too many stories about= people forgetting to turn on the transponder either.

"Hey guys, I forgot turn on the transpon= der before takeoff. ATC reminded me, so I turned it on."


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