X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-d02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6577127 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 08:43:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.194; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.77]) by omr-d02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id CF360701607AE for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 08:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mta005a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mta005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.234.145]) by mtaomg-mb06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 61515E000081 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 08:43:06 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 08:43:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a3a13.28679f60.3faa4fea_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1383658986; bh=u6VKhzcqPynxVGDA8AYaHOWFTHhLVxlgWOkcTlhE1Ls=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kUcRx0EHaCmjrcqvOyVApwQCzeqHZo16yj5AzOSh5fSPZCmO/6uBHEQN8BUB31Ps8 fdmM52bw1c8o/UCv7F3gCLruYkKOuQbO+EXmcxR4tqWBHOZggJ4mkAedZGjBp1BaS4 ssy5xs4YFutMg0TmBnMrrMVRa2zNBg3TPRmfrCDg= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294d5278f5ea59e7 --part1_a3a13.28679f60.3faa4fea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, here is a possible method. The Cozy MkIV has a side hinged canopy with a handle that engages latches to hold it closed. Not enough if the latch is not engaged or fails. For a safety stop there is a slightly curved flexible piece of slotted SS affixed to the interior fuselage and a protruding pin in the canopy frame. When the canopy closes the pin first pushes (bends) the edge of the SS back until the pin enters the slot and the canopy continues until in the closed position. If the canopy should rise up, the pin stops it at the top of the slot. When opening the canopy, the pilot must pull a bit on the flexible SS to allow the pin to escape from the slot. From the outside, the canopy is lifted enough so the pilot can reach inside and push on the SS to release the pin. Simple and effective. Grayhawk In a message dated 11/5/2013 7:23:54 A.M. Central Standard Time, legacyl2k@gmail.com writes: Fred, I know of no canopy issues on the Legacy when locked prior to flight. I have not heard or read of a latch failure on a Legacy. That being said, if you lock the canopy it will stay shut. Forgetting to lock two locks will result in the same error. Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you if you don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the off position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff. The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former. The club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished. This particular type would allow you to taxi all the way to the runway and get to about 100 feet before the engine would quit. Secondly example, If you don't put the trim in the proper place on an Airbus it will not fly, we use "checklist, bells and whistles" to prevent an error here. Bottom line, if your careless, it can kill you... Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort. You"ll live longer and be able to tell your stories over beers form many years. Mike Larkin... Sent from my iPad On Nov 5, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Erik Larson <_asw20747@aol.com_ (mailto:asw20747@aol.com) > wrote: Guys, I think as a community we are practicing denial. There is a 500 pound gorilla standing in the corner of the room and everyone is ignoring him. Canopy problems are killing our friends. The solution is not more bells, lights, switches and alarms, but a fail safe secondary sprin- loaded mechanical latch like the secondary hood latch on your car. A modest team effort exchanging ideas and then teaming up to make some parts for retrofit would do the job. Hoping your canopy will stay shut is not a plan. Since fatal results are frequently obtained, lights and switches are not enough. Fred Moreno I must say, I ABSOLUTELY agree with Fred on this.... something has got to be done about this Legacy Canopy issue and SOON! At the very least, if Lancair is not going to address the issue directly with some kind of fail safe locking device, then they should, at the VERY least, amend the Legacy Operating Handbook, where it says, in so many words: "If the canopy is left unlocked.... no problem.... just fly the airplane and everything will be OK..." to something like: "If you leave the canopy unlocked on the Legacy and get off the ground....there is a VERY good chance you will DIE or if you're lucky, just severely injured..." I have followed these numerous canopy incidents/accidents and can NOT think of ONE, where it hasn't killed someone or if they are really lucky.... they come back with a harrowing tale of MAJOR controllability issues! Apparently this is not the case with the 235, 320, or 360... but with the Legacy...it ALWAYS is!!! As Fred said, Lights, Bells, Whistles, and Warnings are fine....but we need some sort of Fail Safe Latch or these tragic, needless accidents are going to keep happening. Someone mentioned a "simple safety pin through the canopy frame and the roll over structure".... while that may work as a secondary latch, it still requires you to "do something" before takeoff for it to work. A fail safe latch, by design, should allow you to taxi with the canopy cracked for ventilation but if the canopy is inadvertently left unlocked, to ultimately open NO more than a couple of inches. Aren't others in the Legacy community concerned about this? I know Fred is....I know I am!! Regards, Erik Larson Legacy N74FX 7years / 700 hrs in type 25,000+ hrs total time = --part1_a3a13.28679f60.3faa4fea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, here is a possible method.  The Cozy MkIV has a side hinged c= anopy=20 with a handle that engages latches to hold it closed.  Not enough if t= he=20 latch is not engaged or fails.  For a safety stop there is a slightly= =20 curved flexible piece of slotted SS affixed to the interior fusel= age=20 and a protruding pin in the canopy frame.  When the canopy closes the = pin=20 first pushes (bends) the edge of the SS back until the pin enters the slot = and=20 the canopy continues until in the closed position.  If the canopy shou= ld=20 rise up, the pin stops it at the top of the slot.  When opening t= he=20 canopy, the pilot must pull a bit on the flexible SS to allow the pin to es= cape=20 from the slot.  From the outside, the canopy is lifted enough so the p= ilot=20 can reach inside and push on the SS to release the pin.  Simple a= nd=20 effective.
 
Grayhawk 
 
In a message dated 11/5/2013 7:23:54 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 legacyl2k@gmail.com writes:
=
Fred,

I know of no canopy issues on the Legacy when locked prior to flight= .=20  I have not heard or read of a latch failure on a Legacy.  That= =20 being said, if you lock the canopy it will stay shut.  Forgetting to= lock=20 two locks will result in the same error.

 Example of other systems on other airplanes that will kill you= if=20 you don't follow some form of checklist: Leaving the fuel selector in the= off=20 position prior to takeoff or not trimming the airplane prior to takeoff.= =20  The very first airplane accident I ever witnessed was the former.= =20  The club had a rule to turn off the fuel when finished.  This= =20 particular type would allow you to taxi all the way to the runway and get= to=20 about 100 feet before the engine would quit.  Secondly example, If y= ou=20 don't put the trim in the proper place on an Airbus it will not fly, we u= se=20 "checklist, bells and whistles"=20 to prevent an error here.  Bottom line, if your careless, it can kil= l=20 you...  Use a checklist, dummy light, warning system of some sort.= =20  You"ll live longer and be able to tell your stories over beers form= many=20 years.

Mike Larkin...

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 5, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Erik Larson <asw20747@aol.com> wrote:

<= /DIV>
Guys,=20 I think as a community we are practicing denial.   There is a= =20 500 pound gorilla standing in the corner of the room and ever= yone=20 is ignoring him.  
Canopy=20 problems are killing our friends.  The solution is not more bells,= =20 lights, switches and alarms, but a fail safe secondary sprin- loaded=20 mechanical latch like the secondary hood latch on your car.&n= bsp;=20 A modest team effort exchanging ideas and then teaming up to make = some=20 parts for retrofit would do the job. 
Hoping=20 your canopy will stay shut is not a plan.  Since fatal result= s are=20 frequently obtained, lights and switches are not enough.
  
Fred=20 Moreno


I must say, I ABSOLUTELY agree wi= th Fred=20 on this.... something has got to be done about this Legacy Canopy issue= and=20 SOON!

At the very least, if Lancair is = not=20 going to address the issue directly with some kind of fail safe locking= =20 device, then they should, at the VERY least, amend the L= egacy=20 Operating Handbook, where it says, in so many words:  "I= f the=20 canopy is left unlocked.... no problem.... just fly the airplane and=20 everything will be OK..."  t= o=20 something like:  "I= f you=20 leave the canopy unlocked on the Legacy and get off the ground....there= is a=20 VERY good chance you will DIE or if you're lucky, just severely=20 injured..."

I have followed these numerous ca= nopy=20 incidents/accidents and can NOT think of ONE, where it hasn't killed so= meone=20 or if they are really lucky.... they come back with a harrowing tale of= =20 MAJOR controllability issues!  Apparently this is not the case wit= h the=20 235, 320, or 360... but with the Legacy...it ALWAYS is!!!

As Fred said, Lights, Bells, Whis= tles,=20 and Warnings are fine....but we need some sort of Fail Safe Latch or th= ese=20 tragic, needless accidents are going to keep happening.

Someone mentioned a "simple safet= y pin=20 through the canopy frame and the roll over structure= "....=20 while that may work as a secondary latch, it still requires you to "do= =20 something" before takeoff for it to work.
<= BR>
A= fail=20 safe latch, by design, should allow you to taxi with the canopy cracked= for=20 ventilation but if the canopy is inadvertently left unlocked, to ultima= tely=20 open NO more than a couple of inches.
<= BR>
A= ren't=20 others in the Legacy community concerned about this?  
<= BR>
I= know=20 Fred is....I know I am!!
<= BR>
R= egards,
<= BR>
E= rik=20 Larson
<= BR>
L= egacy=20 N74FX
7yea= rs / 700=20 hrs in type
25,0= 00+ hrs=20 total time
<= BR>
<= BR>



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