X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2013 09:58:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTP id 6458663 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 16:25:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.64; envelope-from=douglasbrunner@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Xqt+0Eo8GariLe20uY/0onKsxeFYbt/n3So8/8Fzan/pWlElRxOtl1vjyM6r1RGe; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [98.204.78.83] (helo=DougsVAIO) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1VIP40-0005cb-21 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 16:25:00 -0400 From: "Douglas Brunner" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy X-Original-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 16:25:05 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <002901ceac08$56c28eb0$0447ac10$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01CEABE6.CFB0EEB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac6r6G7MiDG9j7J+TSOzu9hblvArugAH4uOA Content-Language: en-us X-ELNK-Trace: ad85a799c4f5de37c2eb1477c196d22294f5150ab1c16ac083d85a7b94e531755c6fb2c1a983485344ee6e623fd78797350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 98.204.78.83 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CEABE6.CFB0EEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As VanGrunsven said: "Take a lot of time to carefully investigate all the different engine options . then buy a Lycoming!" - or in our case a Continental. From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high@aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 12:36 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Wait, don't give up yet ....... Have you considered electric? Look at those Lithium (Li) iron (Fe) phosphate batteries, equal power at much less weight and smaller size than lead/acid. Come on - Somebody has to be first. See http://aerovoltz.com/ Grayhawk In a message dated 9/7/2013 11:18:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, mwsletten@gmail.com writes: Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da bing! But seriously... Here's the scoop for you Hyenas. Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a certified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certified first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV market, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not a good idea to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a few engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any longer. Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in FLA was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Subaru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at the time (including discussions with many happy customers) suggested the product was top shelf. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said the product had a good history and was insurable. Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing even close to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the biggies. I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues), so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he says--and has announced he will no longer support customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit. In the mean time, he has started another company producing auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA use. Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, recriminations and all that.) SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of yesteryear... just like (most) everyone else... And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... And to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more endearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my wife I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and that you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now? Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight... :) --Mark ____________________________________________ From: "Gary Fitzgerald" Sender: Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400 Or the Subaru?? Gary Fitzgerald LNC2 ~70% St. Charles, MO (Still) Looking for a good deal on a rebuildable or used (I)O-360 ____________________________________________ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Mark, what happened to the diesel idea?? Bill ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CEABE6.CFB0EEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As VanGrunsven said:

 

“Take a lot of time to carefully investigate all the different = engine options … then buy a Lycoming!” – or in our = case a Continental.

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Sky2high@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 12:36 = PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = IO470 in a Legacy

 

W= ait, don't give up yet .......

&= nbsp;

H= ave you considered electric?

&= nbsp;

L= ook at those Lithium (Li) iron (Fe) phosphate batteries, equal = power at much less weight and smaller size than lead/acid.  = Come on - Somebody has to be first.

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

G= rayhawk

&= nbsp;

I= n a message dated 9/7/2013 11:18:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, mwsletten@gmail.com = writes:

<= o:p> 

W= ow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some = I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da = bing!

<= o:p> 

B= ut seriously... Here's the scoop for you = Hyenas.

<= o:p> 

D= eltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. When I = originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling = experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a = certified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine = certified first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in = the UAV market, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. = airspace without FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not = a good idea to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then = funding problems (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a = few engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom = line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any = longer.

<= o:p> 

N= ext up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use something = "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in = FLA was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on = the vaunted Subaru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally = opposed engine with liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything = I could find online at the time (including discussions with many happy = customers) suggested the product was top shelf. Even discussed the issue = with underwriters who all said the product had a good history and was = insurable.

<= o:p> 

W= ell, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and new info = has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising = questions about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear = downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of = maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are = reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to = become a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing = even close to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust = design. There are a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the = biggies. 

<= o:p> 

I= 'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea level, but = still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. Plus, = as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error = when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs = for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those = issues), so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off with an = engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came = when the "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based = business--because of the bad economy, he says--and has announced he will = no longer support customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit.  In = the mean time, he has started another company producing auto conversions = (Honda-based) for LSA use.  Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I = cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, recriminations = and all that.)

<= o:p> 

S= OOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using a good = old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of = yesteryear... just like (most) everyone = else...

<= o:p> 

A= nd that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... And = to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, = yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that = resistance is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely = figurative tear rolls slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are = mean--that's one of your more endearing qualities--but because of the = thousands of dollars I had to tell my wife I wasted) I realize I will = now be assimilated into the collective and that you, the Borg, have won. = DO YA feel better now?

<= o:p> 

B= ack to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a Legacy? I = can trade a nice Subaru-inspired = paperweight...

<= o:p> 

:= )

<= o:p> 

-= -Mark

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

_= ___________________________________________

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

F= rom: "Gary Fitzgerald" <gbfitz@swbell.net>

S= ubject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy

D= ate: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

O= r the Subaru??

&= nbsp;

<= o:p> 

G= ary Fitzgerald

<= o:p> 

L= NC2 ~70%

S= t. Charles, MO

(= Still) Looking for a good deal on

a= rebuildable or used (I)O-360

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

_= ___________________________________________ 

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

F= rom: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] 

S= ent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 = PM

S= ubject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy

<= o:p> 

&= nbsp;

<= o:p> 

M= ark, what happened to the diesel = idea??

<= o:p> 

&= nbsp;

<= o:p> 

B= ill

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