X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2013 09:58:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTP id 6458688 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:31:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.51; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-98-85-141-180.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.141.180]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20130907213044H0100o0ug0e>; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 21:30:46 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.141.180] From: "Bill Bradburry" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy X-Original-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 17:30:45 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <182FFF3ED1A34776B04EE46870C03A2E@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01CEABEF.FD224CA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac6r5dFw6TQR4/P1SVylEmuCWAaD7QAJEA+Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01CEABEF.FD224CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Don't give up and go Lycosaurus on me! It doesn't sound like you have considered the Mazda wankel rotary engine. I have one in my Lancair Legacy FG and I am pretty satisfied with it. It runs as smooth as a turbo prop. If I have a complaint it would be that I would like it to have a little more HP. I think I am getting around 190 HP with the 2 rotor. I could up it to about 275 with the 3 rotor or I could turbo my present set up to get about 250 hp and carry it to 14-15K feet.. But like it is, I climb at about 1500 fpm at 100 kn and cruise at 160 kn at 8000 ft on 7.5 gal/hr. Insurance was no problem. I went overboard on cooling down here in Florida, so I have some cooling drag to get rid of which should be worth another 10 kn or so at cruise. There is a Lancair ES in Texas with the 3 rotor in it and he is keeping up with the ESs in the neighborhood. I think Jeff made a comment that an alternative engine would more than double your build time. That could be true if you are truly reinventing the wheel on the install. Not so much if you have access to tools and follow a tried and true install of the particular alternative engine. My hangar next door neighbor hung his Lycosaurus in an RV-7 in about a week. You are not going to do that with an alternative engine, but that Eggenfeltner Subaru you mentioned can be installed in less than a month easy. Three weeks is not going to double your build time, but if you are the kind of builder that is flipping and flopping about how to do the install, it can take you a lifetime and never get it done. A friend of mine worked on building a Glasair airplane with a 200 hp Lycoming engine in it for 13 years and died before it was ever finished. The last couple of years he spent trying to build a cooling plenum that he liked. Bill B _____ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 12:18 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da bing! But seriously... Here's the scoop for you Hyenas. Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a certified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certified first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV market, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not a good idea to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a few engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any longer. Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in FLA was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Subaru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at the time (including discussions with many happy customers) suggested the product was top shelf. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said the product had a good history and was insurable. Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing even close to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the biggies. I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues), so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he says--and has announced he will no longer support customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit. In the mean time, he has started another company producing auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA use. Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, recriminations and all that.) SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of yesteryear... just like (most) everyone else... And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... And to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more endearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my wife I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and that you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now? Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight... :) --Mark ____________________________________________ From: "Gary Fitzgerald" Sender: Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400 Or the Subaru?? Gary Fitzgerald LNC2 ~70% St. Charles, MO (Still) Looking for a good deal on a rebuildable or used (I)O-360 ____________________________________________ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Mark, what happened to the diesel idea?? Bill ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01CEABEF.FD224CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

 

Don’t give up and go = Lycosaurus on me! 

 

It doesn’t sound like you = have considered the Mazda wankel rotary engine.  I have one in my = Lancair Legacy FG and I am pretty satisfied with it. It runs as smooth as a = turbo prop.  If I have a complaint it would be that I would like it to = have a little more HP.  I think I am getting around 190 HP with the 2 = rotor.  I could up it to about 275 with the 3 rotor or I could turbo my present set up = to get about 250 hp and carry it to 14-15K feet..

But like it is, I climb at about = 1500 fpm at 100 kn and cruise at 160 kn at 8000 ft on 7.5 gal/hr.  Insurance = was no problem.

 

I went overboard on cooling down = here in Florida, so I have some cooling drag to get rid of which should be worth another 10 kn or so at cruise.

 

There is a Lancair ES in Texas with the 3 rotor in it and he = is keeping up with the ESs in the = neighborhood.

 

I think Jeff made a comment that an = alternative engine would more than double your build time.  That could be true = if you are truly reinventing the wheel on the install.  Not so much if you = have access to tools and follow a tried and true install of the particular = alternative engine.  My hangar next door neighbor hung his Lycosaurus in an = RV-7 in about a week.  You are not going to do that with an alternative = engine, but that Eggenfeltner Subaru you mentioned can be installed in less than = a month easy.  Three weeks is not going to double your build time, = but if you are the kind of builder that is flipping and flopping about how to = do the install, it can take you a lifetime and never get it = done.

A friend of mine worked on building = a Glasair airplane with a 200 hp Lycoming engine in it for 13 years and = died before it was ever finished.  The last couple of years he spent = trying to build a cooling plenum that he liked.

 

Bill B

 

 

 

From: = Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten
Sent: Saturday, September = 07, 2013 12:18 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 = in a Legacy

 

 

Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da = bing!

 

But seriously... Here's the scoop for you = Hyenas.

 

Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. = When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling = experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a certified = engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certified = first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV market, and the FAA = has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not = a good idea to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a few = engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't = wait for Deltahawk any longer.

 

Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use = something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in = FLA was = selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Subaru = boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with = liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at the = time (including discussions with many happy customers) suggested the product = was top shelf. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said the = product had a good history and was insurable.

 

Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and = new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear = downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are = reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing even close = to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are = a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the = biggies. 

 

I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea = level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. = Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error when = it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs for the = Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues), so it began = to seem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the = "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he = says--and has announced he will no longer support customers who purchased his = Subaru-based kit.  In the mean time, he has started another company producing = auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA use.  Hmmmmmm. (There is more to = this story I cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, = recriminations and all that.)

 

SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using = a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of = yesteryear... just like (most) everyone else...

 

And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru = too... And to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, = yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance = is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls = slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more = endearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my wife = I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and that = you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now?

 

Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a = Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired = paperweight...

 

:)

 

--Mark

 

 

____________________________________________

 

 

From: "Gary Fitzgerald" <gbfitz@swbell.net>

Subject: [LML] Re: = IO470 in a Legacy

Date: Fri, 06 Sep = 2013 23:59:18 -0400

 

 

Or the Subaru??

 

 

Gary Fitzgerald

 

LNC2 ~70%

St. = Charles, MO

(Still) Looking for a good deal on

a rebuildable or used (I)O-360

 

 

____________________________________________ 

 

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] 

Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 = PM

Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a = Legacy

 

 

 

Mark, what happened to the diesel = idea??

 

 

 

Bill

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