X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 13:07:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from mail-pa0-f51.google.com ([209.85.220.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTPS id 6458429 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 12:46:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.51; envelope-from=2thman1@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id lf1so4613072pab.10 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 09:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.123.5 with SMTP id lw5mr10202026pab.83.1378572365825; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 09:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.1.137] (c-208-53-115-208.customer.broadstripe.net. [208.53.115.208]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vz4sm5803744pab.11.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Sep 2013 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-07329AB7-874E-47DB-A941-30275A8CCDD0 X-Original-Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (10B329) From: John Barrett <2thman1@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy X-Original-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 09:46:02 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-07329AB7-874E-47DB-A941-30275A8CCDD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Don't feel too bad about all that. Just ask the many of us who suckered for= the promise of the Engineair V8 followed by the few of us who thought bankr= uptcy by the owner was not tied to inadequacy of design and research so we t= ried to create our own company. You ain't seen nuthin! =20 Oh and by the way, some of that subgroup also seriously thought we would be= taking the Deltahawk alternative anyway as soon as the minor bugs were work= ed out of that product. =20 Did I tell you this all started in the mid to late 90's and recovery for som= e of us never occurred? My project finally flew in 2012.=20 John Barrett N31VP Sent from my iPad On Sep 7, 2013, at 9:17 AM, Mark Sletten wrote: >=20 > Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs,= but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da bing! >=20 > But seriously... Here's the scoop for you Hyenas. >=20 > Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. When I orig= inally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling experimental en= gines and using in-service data towards development of a certified engine. T= hen they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certified first--mainly,= I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV market, and the FAA h= as decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FAA-certified engine= s, but also because it's prolly not a good idea to use your aviation engine c= ustomers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing), one of the compan= y founders passed away, a few engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on an= d so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any longer. >=20 > Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use something "21st= century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in FLA was selling a "= fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Subaru boxer design. S= eemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with liquid cooling an= d modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at the time (includi= ng discussions with many happy customers) suggested the product was top shel= f. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said the product had a= good history and was insurable. >=20 > Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and new info has= come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising questi= ons about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear downs for i= nspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of maintenance-ind= uced failure), and based on the performance users are reporting (there are m= any flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a customer) it's cl= ear the engine as designed is not producing even close to the claimed horsep= ower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are a few other nitnoi= d issues, but those are the biggies.=20 >=20 > I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea level, but s= till), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. Plus, as we a= ll know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error when it comes= to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs for the Legacy o= ffer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues), so it began to s= eem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that might be more fail= ure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the "manufacturer" shut down his= Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he says--and has announc= ed he will no longer support customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit. I= n the mean time, he has started another company producing auto conversions (= Honda-based) for LSA use. Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I cannot di= scuss at present; accusations, investigations, recriminations and all that.)= >=20 > SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using a good ol= d tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of yesteryear... jus= t like (most) everyone else... >=20 > And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... And t= o all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, yeah, yo= u were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance is (a= nd always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls slowly= down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more endea= ring qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my wif= e I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and that= you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now? >=20 > Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a Legacy? I can= trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight... >=20 > :) >=20 > --Mark >=20 >=20 > ____________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > From: "Gary Fitzgerald" > Sender: > Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy > Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400 >=20 >=20 > Or the Subaru?? > =20 >=20 > Gary Fitzgerald >=20 > LNC2 ~70% > St. Charles, MO > (Still) Looking for a good deal on > a rebuildable or used (I)O-360 >=20 >=20 > ____________________________________________=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy >=20 > =20 >=20 > Mark, what happened to the diesel idea?? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Bill --Apple-Mail-07329AB7-874E-47DB-A941-30275A8CCDD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,

Don't f= eel too bad about all that.  Just ask the many of us who suckered for t= he promise of the Engineair V8 followed by the few of us who thought bankrup= tcy by the owner was not tied to inadequacy of design and research so we tri= ed to create our own company.  You ain't seen nuthin!  
=
Oh and by the way,  some of that subgroup also seriously= thought we would be taking the Deltahawk alternative anyway as soon as the m= inor bugs were worked out of that product.  

D= id I tell you this all started in the mid to late 90's and recovery for some= of us never occurred?   My project finally flew in 2012. 

John Barrett
N31VP


=


Sent from my iPad


On Sep 7, 2= 013, at 9:17 AM, Mark Sletten <mws= letten@gmail.com> wrote:

=

Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was goin= g to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... B= a da bing!

But seriously... Here's the scoop for yo= u Hyenas.

Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA cert= ified. When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selli= ng experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a c= ertified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certif= ied first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV mar= ket, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FA= A-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not a good idea to use you= r aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing)= , one of the company founders passed away, a few engineering issues (mostly f= ixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any l= onger.

Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to u= se something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in FL= A was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Suba= ru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with= liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at= the time (including discussions with many happy customers) suggested the pr= oduct was top shelf. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said= the product had a good history and was insurable.

Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research= , and new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction u= nit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require freque= nt tear downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility= of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are rep= orting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a= customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing even close to t= he claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are a= few other nitnoid issues, but those are the biggies. 

I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's nea= r sea level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was adverti= sing. Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for e= rror when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuff= s for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues)= , so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that m= ight be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the "manufactur= er" shut down his Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he says= --and has announced he will no longer support customers who purchased his Su= baru-based kit.  In the mean time, he has started another company produ= cing auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA use.  Hmmmmmm. (There is mo= re to this story I cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, r= ecriminations and all that.)

SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll b= e using a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of y= esteryear... just like (most) everyone else...

And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... An= d to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, yeah,= you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance is= (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls slo= wly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more en= dearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my w= ife I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and th= at you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now?

Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount f= or a Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight...
:)

--Mark


____________________________________________


From: "Gary Fitzgerald" <gbfitz@swbell.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: IO= 470 in a Legacy
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400


= Or the Subaru??
 

Gary Fitzgerald

LNC2 ~70%
St. Charles, MO
(Still)= Looking for a good deal on
a rebuildable or used (I)O-360


_________________________________________= ___ 



From: Lanca= ir Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: I= O470 in a Legacy

 

Ma= rk, what happened to the diesel idea??

 
=

Bill
= --Apple-Mail-07329AB7-874E-47DB-A941-30275A8CCDD0--