X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2013 12:17:47 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-vb0-f48.google.com ([209.85.212.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTPS id 6458265 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 11:40:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.48; envelope-from=mwsletten@gmail.com Received: by mail-vb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id w16so2890835vbf.21 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.199.5 with SMTP id eq5mr8104728vcb.16.1378568367640; Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.243.233 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 10:39:27 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: IO470 in a Legacy From: Mark Sletten X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5db26ada16b904e5ccf597 --047d7b5db26ada16b904e5ccf597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help first... Ba da bing! But seriously... Here's the scoop for you Hyenas. Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA certified. When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on selling experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of a certified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine certified first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UAV market, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace without FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not a good idea to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding problems (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a few engineering issues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait for Deltahawk any longer. Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to use something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A company in FLA was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion based on the vaunted Subaru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizontally opposed engine with liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everything I could find online at the time (including discussions with many happy customers) suggested the product was top shelf. Even discussed the issue with underwriters who all said the product had a good history and was insurable. Well, not everything was as it seemed during my research, and new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction unit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require frequent tear downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibility of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users are reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to become a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing even close to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust design. There are a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the biggies. I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted, it's near sea level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the designer was advertising. Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave much room for error when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I believe the wing cuffs for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the worst of those issues), so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off with an engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came when the "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based business--because of the bad economy, he says--and has announced he will no longer support customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit. In the mean time, he has started another company producing auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA use. Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I cannot discuss at present; accusations, investigations, recriminations and all that.) SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I'll be using a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled engine of yesteryear... just like (most) everyone else... And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too... And to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah, yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resistance is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear rolls slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of your more endearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I had to tell my wife I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the collective and that you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now? Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount for a Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight... :) --Mark ____________________________________________ From: "Gary Fitzgerald" Sender: Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400 Or the Subaru?? Gary Fitzgerald LNC2 ~70% St. Charles, MO (Still) Looking for a good deal on a rebuildable or used (I)O-360 ____________________________________________ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 in a Legacy Mark, what happened to the diesel idea?? Bill --047d7b5db26ada16b904e5ccf597 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wow, that didn't take long. I knew I was= going to get some I-TOLD-YOU-SOs, but I kinda hoped I'd get some help = first... Ba da bing!

But seriously... Here's t= he scoop for you Hyenas.

Deltahawk is STILL working on getting an engine FAA cer= tified. When I originally considered a Deltahawk the company planned on sel= ling experimental engines and using in-service data towards development of = a certified engine. Then they shifted gears and decided to get an engine ce= rtified first--mainly, I believe, because they see much potential in the UA= V market, and the FAA has decreed UAVs cannot operate in U.S. airspace with= out FAA-certified engines, but also because it's prolly not a good idea= to use your aviation engine customers as beta testers. Then funding proble= ms (ongoing), one of the company founders passed away, a few engineering is= sues (mostly fixed) and so on and so on... Bottom line, I couldn't wait= for Deltahawk any longer.

Next up, the Subaru debacle. I was still determined to = use something "21st century," so I looked at auto conversions. A = company in FLA was selling a "fully engineered" auto conversion b= ased on the vaunted Subaru boxer design. Seemed like a great fit: a horizon= tally opposed engine with liquid cooling and modern EFI, and BONUS, everyth= ing I could find online at the time (including discussions with many happy = customers) suggested the product was top shelf. Even discussed the issue wi= th underwriters who all said the product had a good history and was insurab= le.

Well, not everything was as it seemed during my researc= h, and new info has come to light. There are issues with the gear reduction= unit raising questions about its reliability (at best, it will require fre= quent tear downs for inspection--a worrisome prospect rife with the possibi= lity of maintenance-induced failure), and based on the performance users ar= e reporting (there are many flying; one of the reasons I was convinced to b= ecome a customer) it's clear the engine as designed is not producing ev= en close to the claimed horsepower, likely due to poor intake/exhaust desig= n. There are a few other nitnoid issues, but those are the biggies.=A0

I'll be operating off a 2,600' runway (granted,= it's near sea level, but still), so I needed all the ponies the design= er was advertising. Plus, as we all know, the Lancair design does not leave= much room for error when it comes to in-flight power loss (although I beli= eve the wing cuffs for the Legacy offer much promise to ameliorate the wors= t of those issues), so it began to seem more and more unwise to start off w= ith an engine that might be more failure prone. The nail in the coffin came= when the "manufacturer" shut down his Subaru-based business--bec= ause of the bad economy, he says--and has announced he will no longer suppo= rt customers who purchased his Subaru-based kit. =A0In the mean time, he ha= s started another company producing auto conversions (Honda-based) for LSA = use. =A0Hmmmmmm. (There is more to this story I cannot discuss at present; = accusations, investigations, recriminations and all that.)

SOOOOOO, after YEARS of wasted time, it looks like I= 9;ll be using a good old tried and true old-timey/tech passe air-cooled eng= ine of yesteryear... just like (most) everyone else...

And that's what happened to the diesel idea... and the Subaru too.= .. And to all of you here on the LML who told me this would happen... Yeah,= yeah, you were right and I, the maverick, was wrong. I now see that resist= ance is (and always has been) futile. As a single, lonely figurative tear r= olls slowly down my cheek (not because you guys are mean--that's one of= your more endearing qualities--but because of the thousands of dollars I h= ad to tell my wife I wasted) I realize I will now be assimilated into the c= ollective and that you, the Borg, have won. DO YA feel better now?

Back to business: Anybody got a spare 550 engine mount = for a Legacy? I can trade a nice Subaru-inspired paperweight...
<= br>
:)

--Mark


____________________________________________


From: "Gary Fitzgerald" <gbfitz@swbell.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: IO470 i= n a Legacy
Date: Fri,= 06 Sep 2013 23:59:18 -0400


Or the Subaru??
=A0

Gary Fitzgerald

LNC2 ~70%
St. Charles, MO
(Still) = Looking for a good deal on
a rebuildable or used (I)O-360


________________________________________= ____=A0



From: Lancai= r Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=A0
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:41 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: = IO470 in a Legacy

=A0

Mar= k, what happened to the diesel idea??

=A0

Bill
--047d7b5db26ada16b904e5ccf597--