X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 12:27:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail.grobsystems.com ([74.218.59.19] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6314722 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:10:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.218.59.19; envelope-from=btv1==8712c8156df==bronnenmeier@grobsystems.com X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1370704183-03e9c30c601ae8c0001-yPXFKn Received: from bluexch01.grob.local ([10.10.0.103]) by mail.grobsystems.com with ESMTP id tqfE8jEVWW8kHLnB; Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:09:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: bronnenmeier@GROBSYSTEMS.COM X-ASG-Whitelist: Client X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CE645A.345F3E73" Subject: RE: [LML] Changed subject to Gap Seals X-Original-Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2013 11:09:42 -0400 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [LML] Changed subject to Gap Seals X-Original-Message-ID: <5C92D042CBEBFF46A7BE287DB40D49781A0B9C@bluexch01.grob.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [LML] Changed subject to Gap Seals Thread-Index: Ac5kVeTLvbO4LKLfRCe+dPfB8/xJGw== From: X-Original-To: , X-Barracuda-Connect: UNKNOWN[10.10.0.103] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1370704183 X-Barracuda-URL: http://74.218.59.19:80/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at grobsystems.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CE645A.345F3E73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danny, =20 I buy my gap seals from "wings and Wheels" - they have also pictures and sketches on their site of how to mount them. My ex co-workers from GROB aircraft used their services (only for the gliders) for many years and were happy with them. =20 Gap seals in general: I saw a speed increase may be of 2 kts at the most - it is something that I question if I would do it again. I can't take them off again because when I removed old tape the paint came off on some spots. =20 On my 4P gap seals have a very limited life time. I lose one about every 15 - 20 hrs of flight. No big deal - no safety hazard - it is just gone after the flight. I pay attention now that on decent I keep the airspeed from going into the yellow (200kts) too far. If I fool around with the airplane eg. taking dives until I hit red line (270kts) , flying over the runway full throttle and pulling it straight up..... I can almost bet that one seal is missing. =20 I pay really good attention that all the surfaces are clean and free of old glue, I apply high pressure when initially applying the tape, I tried to use a heat gun, I rough the surface of the mylar (usually the double sided tape is still on the wing), I make sure that the inner tapes are still there and sealed. In short: I am a person that works usually very detailed and I put a lot of effort in applying the seals but I can't get them to stay on for good..... =20 In my opinion these seals are made for lower speeds than what we see in our planes. If someone can give me some ideas of what other products / procedures to use I would be very happy.... =20 These are just my thoughts and there might be a better solution out there. =20 Ralf =20 From: Sky2high@aol.com [mailto:Sky2high@aol.com]=20 Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:52 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Changed subject to Gap Seals =20 Do an internet search for "glider gap seals" as a start. =20 Grayhawk =20 In a message dated 6/7/2013 9:43:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, danny@n107sd.com writes: Speaking of gap seals, any recommendations on where to get them, how to attach them, whether to put them on a painted surface or sand it down? =20 =20 Danny LNC2-360 Mk-II Nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool. =20 =20 =20 From: Sky2high@aol.com [mailto:Sky2high@aol.com]=20 Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 9:41 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: VORTEX GENERATORS =20 Chris, =20 Dittos. Didn't Bob Belshe say he eventually retained the vortex generator only forward of the ailerons with better low speed control with them and less reduction in cruise speed. If ya add gap seals ya can get the cruise speed back and even increase control surface aukthority.............. =20 Grayhawk =20 In a message dated 6/7/2013 7:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes: Being somewhat interested in aircraft efficiency, two quotes from the VG website jumped out at me. =20 On the Lancair page:=20 " A 10 knot reduction in the stall speed; much better low speed handling and no reduction in the cruise speed."=20 Then on the FAQ page: " At maximum power, you may experience a 0-4 mph reduction, but this depends on the particular aircraft. At normal cruising speed there is no noticeable reduction. " =20 For me maximum power typically is cruise power. The speed loss will tend to be on the higher side in a low drag airframe. =20 VGs locally energize the boundary layer to keep the flow attached. This takes energy. Unfortunately a nice laminar flow section is turned into a partially turbulent flow wing. Everything is a trade-off. =20 A previous link on the LML to Bob Belshe's 235 VG mod also reported a reduction in cruise speed of a couple knots. =20 Here is another link to a flight test report of a Bonanza with a VG upgrade. =09 http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_wide_sc reen.pdf=20 =09 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.net =20 =09 Sent from my spiffy iPad =09 On Jun 4, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Rob Murawski wrote: Nice info on the VG's! I've been contemplating whether to install the extended wingtips on my 360 MkII, now it looks like I have another option to reduce the stall speed. Assuming I even need that. =20 This doesn't make the decision-making process any easier. =20 -Rob Lancair 360MkII 15% Complete Pittsburgh, PA =20 From: PETER WILLIAMS Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42 AM To: Subject: [LML] VORTEX GENERATORS =20 HI THERE =09 here is the link for vortex generator kits for Lancair aircraft =09 http://www.pnwaero.com/Lancair.htm =09 i was very happy with the company and with the results =09 peter williams =3D ------_=_NextPart_001_01CE645A.345F3E73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Danny,

 

I buy my gap seals from “wings and Wheels” – they = have also pictures and sketches on their site of how to mount them. My = ex co-workers from GROB aircraft used their services (only for the = gliders) for many years and were happy with = them.

 

Gap seals in general: I saw a speed increase may be of 2 kts at the = most – it is something that I question if I would do it again. I = can’t take them off again because when I removed old tape the = paint came off on some spots.

 

On my 4P gap seals have a very limited life time. I lose one about = every 15 – 20 hrs of flight. No big deal – no safety hazard = – it is just gone after the flight. I pay attention now that on = decent I keep the airspeed from going into the yellow (200kts) too far. = If I fool around with the airplane eg. taking dives until I hit red line = (270kts) , flying over the runway full throttle and pulling it straight = up….. I can almost bet that one seal is = missing.

 

I pay really good attention that all the surfaces are clean and free = of old glue, I apply high pressure when initially applying the tape, I = tried to use a heat gun, I rough the surface of the mylar (usually the = double sided tape is still on the wing), I make sure that the inner = tapes are still there and sealed. In short: I am a person that works = usually very detailed and I put a lot of effort in applying the seals = but I can’t get them to stay on for = good…..

 

In my opinion these seals are made for lower speeds than what we see = in our planes. If someone can give me some ideas of what other products = / procedures to use I would be very = happy….

 

These are just my thoughts and there might be a better solution out = there.

 

Ralf

 

From:= = Sky2high@aol.com [mailto:Sky2high@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June = 07, 2013 12:52 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: = Re: [LML] Changed subject to Gap = Seals

 

D= o an internet search for "glider gap seals" as a = start.

&= nbsp;

G= rayhawk

&= nbsp;

I= n a message dated 6/7/2013 9:43:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, danny@n107sd.com = writes:

Speaking of gap seals, any recommendations on = where to get them, how to attach them, whether to put them on a painted = surface or sand it down?

 

 

Danny

LNC2-360 Mk-II

Nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently = talented fool.

 

 

 

= From:= Sky2high@aol.com [mailto:Sky2high@aol.com] =
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 9:41 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject: [LML] Re: VORTEX = GENERATORS

 

C= hris,

&= nbsp;

D= ittos.  Didn't Bob Belshe say he eventually retained the vortex = generator only forward of the ailerons with better low speed control = with them and less reduction in cruise speed.  If ya add gap seals = ya can get the cruise speed back and even increase control surface = aukthority..............

&= nbsp;

G= rayhawk

&= nbsp;

I= n a message dated 6/7/2013 7:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chris_zavatson@yahoo.com = writes:

=

B= eing somewhat interested in aircraft efficiency, two quotes from the VG = website jumped out at me.

<= o:p> 

O= n the Lancair page:=

&= quot; A 10 knot reduction in the stall speed; much better low speed = handling and no reduction in the cruise = speed." =

T= hen on the FAQ page:<= o:p>

&= quot; At maximum power, you may experience a 0-4 mph = reduction, but this depends on the particular aircraft. At = normal cruising speed there is no noticeable = reduction. "

<= o:p> 

F= or me maximum power typically is cruise power.  The speed = loss will tend to be on the higher side in a low drag = airframe.

<= o:p> 

V= Gs locally energize the boundary layer to keep the flow attached. =  This takes energy. Unfortunately a nice laminar flow section is = turned into a partially turbulent flow wing. Everything is a = trade-off.

<= o:p> 

A= previous link on the LML to Bob Belshe's 235 VG mod also reported a = reduction in cruise speed of a couple = knots.

<= o:p> 

H= ere is another link to a flight test report of a Bonanza with a VG = upgrade.

<= a = href=3D"http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_= wide_screen.pdf" = title=3D"http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise= _wide_screen.pdf">http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/V= gs_cruise_wide_screen.pdf =

<= br>Chris Zavatson

N= 91CZ

3= 60std

<= a href=3D"http://www.n91cz.net/" = title=3D"http://www.n91cz.net/">www.N91CZ.net

<= br>Sent from my spiffy iPad

<= br>On Jun 4, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Rob Murawski <rob@robmurawski.com> = wrote:

N= ice info on the VG's!  I've been contemplating whether to install = the extended wingtips on my 360 MkII, now it looks like I have another = option to reduce the stall speed.  Assuming I even need = that.

<= o:p> 

T= his doesn't make the decision-making process any = easier.

<= o:p> 

-= Rob

L= ancair 360MkII

1= 5% Complete

P= ittsburgh, PA

<= o:p> 

From: PETER WILLIAMS <peterpawaviation@hotmail.co= m>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
<= b>Date: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42 AM
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
<= b>Subject: [LML] VORTEX = GENERATORS

<= o:p> 

H= I THERE

here is the link for vortex generator kits for Lancair = aircraft

http://www.pnwaero.com/Lanca= ir.htm

i was very happy with the company and with the = results

peter = williams

=

=3D=

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