X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:49:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta21.charter.net ([216.33.127.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6312975 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:44:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.81; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta21.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130607144325.SCR10448.mta21.charter.net@imp09> for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2013 10:43:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([75.132.130.89]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id lSjR1l00D1vsS2r05SjR2N; Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:43:25 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=Cp/n6QED c=1 sm=1 a=5qs0V4O3azrKx6HjxWTekQ==:17 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=orAGEgGygB0A:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=XAPGKDdCAAAA:8 a=5FIZSGrRAAAA:8 a=zrDG9CcMAAAA:8 a=69EAbJreAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=1JXNnX0CAAAA:8 a=4KEi5YTRyAyPQOjK-jwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=-ZBvsNeBbbMA:10 a=ItdIRbnKRL4A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=SvQ52vU_ylgA:10 a=EfJqPEOeqlMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=QpHTDI5phHyqRwO4o4cA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=wR8WdYEwGqoA:10 a=UraAesPzqb0xr4z5:21 a=5qs0V4O3azrKx6HjxWTekQ==:117 From: Terrence O'Neill Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--680501980 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: VORTEX GENERATORS X-Original-Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 09:43:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <7B4F8F6F-B26B-480F-A857-5EA1BCBB86CC@charter.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) --Apple-Mail-13--680501980 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Grayhawk, Yes, Bob Belshe did say that... to me... and I did that -- placed the = VGs only ahead of the ailerons. Also sealed the gaps. Terrence On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:40 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: > Chris, > =20 > Dittos. Didn't Bob Belshe say he eventually retained the vortex = generator only forward of the ailerons with better low speed control = with them and less reduction in cruise speed. If ya add gap seals ya = can get the cruise speed back and even increase control surface = aukthority.............. > =20 > Grayhawk > =20 > In a message dated 6/7/2013 7:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, = chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes: > Being somewhat interested in aircraft efficiency, two quotes from the = VG website jumped out at me. >=20 > On the Lancair page: > " A 10 knot reduction in the stall speed; much better low speed = handling and no reduction in the cruise speed." > Then on the FAQ page: > " At maximum power, you may experience a 0-4 mph reduction, but this = depends on the particular aircraft. At normal cruising speed there is no = noticeable reduction. " >=20 > For me maximum power typically is cruise power. The speed loss will = tend to be on the higher side in a low drag airframe. >=20 > VGs locally energize the boundary layer to keep the flow attached. = This takes energy. Unfortunately a nice laminar flow section is turned = into a partially turbulent flow wing. Everything is a trade-off. >=20 > A previous link on the LML to Bob Belshe's 235 VG mod also reported a = reduction in cruise speed of a couple knots. >=20 > Here is another link to a flight test report of a Bonanza with a VG = upgrade. > = http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_wide_scre= en.pdf >=20 > Chris Zavatson > N91CZ > 360std > www.N91CZ.net >=20 > Sent from my spiffy iPad >=20 > On Jun 4, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Rob Murawski wrote: >=20 >> Nice info on the VG's! I've been contemplating whether to install = the extended wingtips on my 360 MkII, now it looks like I have another = option to reduce the stall speed. Assuming I even need that. >>=20 >> This doesn't make the decision-making process any easier. >>=20 >> -Rob >> Lancair 360MkII >> 15% Complete >> Pittsburgh, PA >>=20 >> From: PETER WILLIAMS >> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List >> Date: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42 AM >> To: >> Subject: [LML] VORTEX GENERATORS >>=20 >> HI THERE >>=20 >> here is the link for vortex generator kits for Lancair aircraft >>=20 >> http://www.pnwaero.com/Lancair.htm >>=20 >> i was very happy with the company and with the results >>=20 >> peter williams >=20 > =3D --Apple-Mail-13--680501980 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Grayhawk,
Yes, Bob Belshe did say that... to me... and I did that -- placed the VGs only ahead of the ailerons. Also sealed the gaps.
Terrence

On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:40 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

Chris,
 
Dittos.  Didn't Bob Belshe say he eventually retained the vortex generator only forward of the ailerons with better low speed control with them and less reduction in cruise speed.  If ya add gap seals ya can get the cruise speed back and even increase control surface aukthority..............
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 6/7/2013 7:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes:
Being somewhat interested in aircraft efficiency, two quotes from the VG website jumped out at me.

On the Lancair page:
" A 10 knot reduction in the stall speed; much better low speed handling and no reduction in the cruise speed."
Then on the FAQ page:
" At maximum power, you may experience a 0-4 mph reduction, but this depends on the particular aircraft. At normal cruising speed there is no noticeable reduction. "

For me maximum power typically is cruise power.  The speed loss will tend to be on the higher side in a low drag airframe.

VGs locally energize the boundary layer to keep the flow attached.  This takes energy. Unfortunately a nice laminar flow section is turned into a partially turbulent flow wing. Everything is a trade-off.

A previous link on the LML to Bob Belshe's 235 VG mod also reported a reduction in cruise speed of a couple knots.

Here is another link to a flight test report of a Bonanza with a VG upgrade.
http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_wide_screen.pdf

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

Sent from my spiffy iPad

On Jun 4, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Rob Murawski <rob@robmurawski.com> wrote:

Nice info on the VG's!  I've been contemplating whether to install the extended wingtips on my 360 MkII, now it looks like I have another option to reduce the stall speed.  Assuming I even need that.

This doesn't make the decision-making process any easier.

-Rob
Lancair 360MkII
15% Complete
Pittsburgh, PA

From: PETER WILLIAMS <peterpawaviation@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42 AM
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] VORTEX GENERATORS

HI THERE

here is the link for vortex generator kits for Lancair aircraft

http://www.pnwaero.com/Lancair.htm

i was very happy with the company and with the results

peter williams
=

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