X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:02:28 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com ([17.158.58.247] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6038724 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:49:58 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.58.247; envelope-from=gw5@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_p92OnXpfby2WrsDQT7+Vzg)" Received: from [192.168.1.144] (cpe-076-182-074-011.nc.res.rr.com [76.182.74.11]) by nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MHH00HQJYM2AO80@nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:49:17 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-31_03:2013-01-31,2013-01-31,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301310096 From: George Wehrung X-Original-Message-id: <46DCB890-8B22-4BF4-9D7B-55C057DE6191@me.com> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:19:14 +0430 References: X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) --Boundary_(ID_p92OnXpfby2WrsDQT7+Vzg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable That's awesome Todd! I always look for a laugh each day, especially = those based in reality, and just got it. =20 Thank you. And I agree wholeheartedly. On Jan 31, 2013, at 8:16 PM, Todd Long wrote: > I guess my analogy was lost in translation. Having gone to a lot more = training, received multiple type ratings and higher certificate ratings, = I have spent years more in training than a newly minted CFI.=20 > And yes I'd say hazard pay would be some of that price. Lol. I have = more "no shitting there we were" stories training low time pilots than = flying around the world in jets.=20 >=20 > Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. >=20 > On Jan 31, 2013, at 9:05, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: >=20 >> Hmmm! Bad analogy I would say. Residency for a GP is three years. = Residency for a surgeon is 7 years plus whatever is added on for the = cardiac fellowship, probably 2 more years. In other words about 6 years = more training! That is three times the training of the GP! >> The rate for a 30K hour instructor is the same as for a 300 hour = instructor. The rate for a newly minted surgeon is the same as for one = with 30 years practice. You can pick your surgeon and you can pick your = instructor and I think that is what is happening with the HIPAT = instructors. Is the value worth the price? A few say yes. Apparently, = the majority of Lancair drivers say no. >> =20 >> I agree with those that say more training is needed. I just wish the = training was not priced out of the market so that it would be obtained = by more folks. >> =20 >> I always thought that the HIPAT fee premium was just some sort of = hazardous duty pay because they were flying in those dangerous Lancairs! = :>) >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Todd Long >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:40 AM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >> =20 >> Type training is always more expensive. Why does it cost $100 to see = your GP doctor compared to $1000 for a quick consult from a heart = surgeon? I feel my time is significantly more valuable when I instruct = compared to a newly minted 300 hr TT instructor.=20 >>=20 >> Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. >>=20 >> On Jan 31, 2013, at 0:47, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: >>=20 >>> Why is flight training by a HIPAT instructor so much more expensive = than flight training by other instructors? I think that is a larger = factor in the =D0=B2=D0=82=D1=9Areluctance by some=D0=B2=D0=82=D1=9C to = get training in Lancairs than any other reason with the possible = exception of availability of an HIPAT instructor. >>> =20 >>> Bill B >>> =20 >>> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Todd Long >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:21 PM >>> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>> Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >>> =20 >>> The reluctance by some to regular and ongoing training baffles me. = When I picked up my "preflown" IV-P I met a lobo instructor there and = did training on the way home. I spent 3 days with him and still feel I = have a lot to learn. Could I have picked it up and made it home safely? = Absolutely. Did I do the training just for insurance reasons? No. Im = sure some will disagree, but here it is: if you feel you are too good = and safe already to not need training and practice in this aircraft you = have no business flying it with passengers. Check the ego at the hanger = door. This airplane needs to be flown by a well trained pilot in a = professional manner. I applauded Jeff for his efforts to start an = organization dedicated to bettering the safety record of lancairs. I = think the lancairs can be flown by regular private pilots with = appropriate training and an appropriate attitude. Training is not a = substitute for experience. But without some training you might not live = long enough to get the experience. Just because the airplane might be = capable of something doesn't mean the pilot is.=20 >>> =20 >>> BTW, I spend almost 15 days a year in recurrent simulator training. = And still think I can benefit from one on one with a lancair instructor = every year >>> =20 >>> Todd Long >>> Capt CE-750 (citation X) >>> NetJets >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 19:41, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Scott, >>>> =20 >>>> What Lancair model do you fly? >>>> =20 >>>> Jeff >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:25 PM, Scott E Keighan = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> George, >>>>> I respect your position with respect to the LOBO but I disagree = that because I choose not to be a member I am not >>>>> making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the = LML amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, = what I have done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this = forum. Lets just say that I am a professional within the aviation = industry ongoing for over 30 years. I have given numerous talks to = various organizations with respect to my profession and interests. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a better pilot or = how to achieve that goal. Although I do have my own thoughts on that. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Scott Keighan >>>>>=20 >>>>> P.S. I fly IFR and VFR as required in both airplanes and = helicopters. I also do not have any issues getting insurance or = training. >>>>>=20 >>>>> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500 >>>>> From: gw5@me.com >>>>> Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >>>>>=20 >>>>> Scott, >>>>> =20 >>>>> It should be obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of = $40/yr per member. This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a = couple of reasons: >>>>> =20 >>>>> 1. The tremendous amount of information with regard to building = the various models of Lancairs, the depth of aviation experience in = aerodynamics and pilotage of our Lancairs, and the knowledge base of = regulations from those who served in regulatory bodies.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> 2. All of the above plus the commitment of each of us to become = better pilots whether through proficiency training or increasing our = ratings/knowledge base enables such a body as LOBO to better represent = us as whole whether its for insurance rates or for potential FAA = governance.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> In my opinion, for the cost of 7 gallons or a half hour of flying = per year we are getting a great deal.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> In sum; you won't be a better pilot because you joined LOBO but = because you made a comittment to be a better pilot by learning from = others and taking the step to go beyond the status quo.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> I can't tell you how many pilots that I have talked to that just = go bombing through MOAs and other high density traffic areas squawking = 1200 because they can without talking to anyone. Just because you can = doesn't mean it's smarter.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> It's fun to fly VFR but having the ability and knowledge to fly = IFR in your back pocket benefits you and everyone in your plane and the = airspace around you.=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> George >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Posted for Scott E Keighan : >>>>>=20 >>>>> So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO I will = be a=20 >>>>> better pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool. >>>>> How exactly does that work?=20 >>>>> Other then someone getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this = like a pyramid=20 >>>>> scam? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Don't insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If = the LOBO is=20 >>>>> so great, why are you even on the LML? >>>>> I think the LOBO members should go to their own blog. I am sure = they have=20 >>>>> one. >>>>> Scott keighan >>>>> 905 262 5997 >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Whoa... lighten up. Since the LML had been operating = successfully for a number of years prior to the founding of LOBO and the = LML would likely already be in touch with most folks who would be = interested in joining and participating in LOBO, an agreement was forged = which allowed LOBO to use the LML as its communications arm. It was a = logical decision which would benefit both entities. Both organizations = exist for the benefit of the Lancair community, especially where safety = is involved. As for cost... if $40/year is too much to pay to an = organization dedicated to your safety and actively working to help = getting the Lancair fleet insured at better rates then don't join. = Also, don't participate in their discussions or learn anything from = their shared knowledge... at least that way you'll get what you paid = for. But don't throw stones at folks who are trying to help... that = doesn't get us anywhere. ] >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: colyncase@earthlink.net >>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500 >>>>> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>>>> Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >>>>>=20 >>>>> Dico, >>>>> That's a good point. That's one reason we would like to get as = many Lancair=20 >>>>> pilots on the LML and into LOBO as possible. It's largely a = word of mouth=20 >>>>> process to get let people know about these two resources. Getting = the word=20 >>>>> out to everyone is one of the "things we can do as a community" to = improve the=20 >>>>> situation. =20 >>>>> LOBO membership is $40 at www.lancairowners.com. >>>>> (Marv would love contributions to keep the LML site going too!) >>>>> Colyn >>>>> On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident = rate for=20 >>>>> Lancairs is 500x that of commercial aviation... do we have a break = down of=20 >>>>> what the rate is of LOBO members vs. Non-members. I would hope = that by just=20 >>>>> being a LOBO member and reading/learning from this group that the = accident=20 >>>>> rate for us is more in line with the 300x experimental or even = better than=20 >>>>> that.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Have we gone through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a = LOBO=20 >>>>> member. It would be interesting. >>>>> -DIco >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Dico Reijers >>>>>=20 >>>>> InternetWorks Ltd. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 300 University Avenue >>>>> Charlottetown >>>>> PE, C1A 4M4 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 902-892-4671 (T) >>>>> 888-368-9484 (F) >>>>>=20 >>>>> www.internetworks.ca >>>>> www.apartmentspei.com >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> -- >>>>> =20 >>>>> For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --Boundary_(ID_p92OnXpfby2WrsDQT7+Vzg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable toddlong1@gmail.com> = wrote:
I guess my analogy was lost in = translation.  Having gone to a lot more training, received multiple = type ratings and higher certificate ratings,  I have spent years = more in training than a newly minted CFI. 
And yes I'd = say hazard pay would be some of that price. Lol. I have more "no = shitting there we were" stories training low time pilots than flying = around the world in jets. 

Typing and grammar errors = courtesy of Siri and the iPhone.

On Jan 31, 2013, at 9:05, = "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> = wrote:

=

Hmmm!  Bad analogy I would = say.  Residency for a GP is three years.  Residency for a surgeon is 7 years plus = whatever is added on for the cardiac fellowship, probably 2 more years.  In = other words about 6 years more training!  That is three times the training of the = GP!

The rate for a 30K hour instructor = is the same as for a 300 hour instructor.  The rate for a newly minted = surgeon is the same as for one with 30 years practice.  You can pick your surgeon = and you can pick your instructor and I think that is what is happening with the = HIPAT instructors.  Is the value worth the price?  A few say = yes.  Apparently, the majority of Lancair drivers say no.

 

I agree with those that say more = training is needed.  I just wish the training was not priced out of the = market so that it would be obtained by more folks.

 

I always thought that the HIPAT fee premium was just some sort of hazardous duty pay because they were = flying in those dangerous Lancairs!  :>)

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Todd = Long
Sent: Thursday, January = 31, 2013 7:40 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members

 

Type training is always more expensive. Why does it cost $100 to = see your GP doctor compared to $1000 for a quick consult from a heart = surgeon? I feel my time is significantly more valuable when I instruct compared to = a newly minted 300 hr TT instructor. 


Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the = iPhone.


On Jan 31, 2013, at 0:47, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> = wrote:

Why is flight training by a HIPAT instructor so much = more expensive than flight training by other instructors?  I think that = is a larger factor in the =D0=B2=D0=82=D1=9Areluctance by some=D0=B2=D0=82=D1=9C= to get training in Lancairs than any other reason with the possible exception of availability of an HIPAT = instructor.

 

Bill = B

 

From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Todd = Long
Sent: Wednesday, January = 30, 2013 9:21 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Accident rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

 

The reluctance by some to regular and ongoing training baffles = me. When I picked up my "preflown" IV-P I met a lobo instructor there and did training on the way home. I spent 3 days with him and still feel I have = a lot to learn. Could I have picked it up and made it home safely? Absolutely. = Did I do the training just for insurance reasons? No. Im sure some will = disagree, but here it is: if you feel you are too good and safe already to not need = training and practice in this aircraft you have no business flying it with = passengers. Check the ego at the hanger door. This airplane needs to be flown by a = well trained pilot in a professional manner. I applauded Jeff for his efforts = to start an organization dedicated to bettering the safety record of = lancairs. I think the lancairs can be flown by regular private pilots with = appropriate training and an appropriate attitude. Training is not a substitute for experience. But without some training you might not live long enough to = get the experience. Just because the airplane might be capable of something = doesn't mean the pilot is. 

 

BTW, I spend almost 15 days a year in recurrent simulator = training. And still think I can benefit from one on one with a lancair instructor = every year

 

Todd Long

Capt CE-750 (citation = X)

NetJets


Sent from my iPad


On Jan 30, 2013, at 19:41, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

Scott,

 

What Lancair model do you = fly?

 

Jeff

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:25 PM, Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca&= gt; wrote:

George,
I respect your position with respect to the LOBO but I disagree that = because I choose not to be a member I am not
making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the LML = amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, what I have = done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this forum. Lets just = say that I am a professional within the aviation industry ongoing for over 30 = years. I have given numerous talks to various organizations with respect to my profession and interests.

I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a better pilot or how to = achieve that goal.  Although I do have my own thoughts on that.

Scott Keighan

P.S. I fly IFR and VFR as required in both airplanes and helicopters. I = also do not have any issues getting insurance or = training.

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500
From: gw5@me.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

Scott,

 

It should be obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of = $40/yr per member. This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a couple of = reasons:

 

1. The tremendous amount of information with regard to building = the various models of Lancairs, the depth of aviation experience in = aerodynamics and pilotage of our Lancairs, and the knowledge base of regulations from = those who served in regulatory = bodies. 

 

2. All of the above plus the commitment of each of us to become = better pilots whether through proficiency training or increasing our = ratings/knowledge base enables such a body as LOBO to better represent us as whole whether = its for insurance rates or for potential FAA = governance. 

 

In my opinion, for the cost of 7 gallons or a half hour of = flying per year we are getting a great = deal. 

 

In sum; you won't be a better pilot because you joined LOBO but = because you made a comittment to be a better pilot by learning from others and = taking the step to go beyond the status = quo. 

 

I can't tell you how many pilots that I have talked to that just = go bombing through MOAs and other high density traffic areas squawking 1200 because they can without talking to anyone. Just because you can doesn't = mean it's smarter. 

 

It's fun to fly VFR but having the ability and knowledge to fly = IFR in your back pocket benefits you and everyone in your plane and the = airspace around you. 

 

George

 

 

 

 

 



Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote:


Posted for Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca&= gt;:

So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO I will be a =
better pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool.
How exactly does that work?
Other then someone getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this like a = pyramid
scam?

Don't insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If the = LOBO is
so great, why are you even on the LML?
I think the LOBO members should go to their own blog. I am sure they = have
one.
Scott keighan
905 262 5997

[Whoa... lighten up.  Since the LML had been operating successfully = for a number of years prior to the founding of LOBO and the LML would likely = already be in touch with most folks who would be interested in joining and participating in LOBO, an agreement was forged which allowed LOBO to use = the LML as its communications arm.  It was a logical decision which = would benefit both entities.  Both organizations exist for the benefit of = the Lancair community, especially where safety is involved.  As for = cost... if $40/year is too much to pay to an organization dedicated to your safety = and actively working to help getting  the Lancair fleet insured at = better rates then don't join. Also, don't participate in their discussions or = learn anything from their shared knowledge... at least that way you'll get = what you paid for. But don't throw stones at folks who are trying to help... that doesn't get us anywhere.  <marv>   =  ]

 



From: colyncase@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500
To: lml@lancaironline.net
= Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members

Dico,
That's a good point.   That's one reason we would like to get = as many Lancair
pilots on the LML and into LOBO as possible.    It's largely a word of mouth
process to get let people know about these two = resources.  Getting the word
out to everyone is one of the "things we can do as a community" to improve the
situation.  
LOBO membership is $40 at www.lancairowners.com.
(Marv would love contributions to keep the LML site going too!)
Colyn
On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident rate for =
Lancairs is 500x that of commercial aviation... do we have a break down = of
what the rate is of LOBO members vs. Non-members.  I would = hope that by just
being a LOBO member and reading/learning from this group that the = accident
rate for us is more in line with the 300x experimental or even better = than
that.

Have we gone through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a LOBO =
member.  It would be interesting.
-DIco

--
Regards,

Dico Reijers

InternetWorks Ltd.

300 University = Avenue
Charlottetown PE, = C1A = 4M4

902-892-4671 (T)
888-368-9484 (F)

www.internetworks.ca
www.apartmentspei.com


     

 

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