X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6038306 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:06:58 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.52; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-98-85-189-34.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.189.34]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20130131130620H02000bkroe>; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:06:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.189.34] From: "Bill Bradburry" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:06:20 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01CDFF89.DB7D0B20" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac3/sCmMg5dEJRfxToO2Vcfg6J3nsAAAMi/g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01CDFF89.DB7D0B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm! Bad analogy I would say. Residency for a GP is three years. Residency for a surgeon is 7 years plus whatever is added on for the = cardiac fellowship, probably 2 more years. In other words about 6 years more training! That is three times the training of the GP! The rate for a 30K hour instructor is the same as for a 300 hour = instructor. The rate for a newly minted surgeon is the same as for one with 30 years practice. You can pick your surgeon and you can pick your instructor = and I think that is what is happening with the HIPAT instructors. Is the = value worth the price? A few say yes. Apparently, the majority of Lancair drivers say no. =20 I agree with those that say more training is needed. I just wish the training was not priced out of the market so that it would be obtained = by more folks. =20 I always thought that the HIPAT fee premium was just some sort of = hazardous duty pay because they were flying in those dangerous Lancairs! :>) =20 _____ =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Todd Long Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:40 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members =20 Type training is always more expensive. Why does it cost $100 to see = your GP doctor compared to $1000 for a quick consult from a heart surgeon? I = feel my time is significantly more valuable when I instruct compared to a newly minted 300 hr TT instructor.=20 Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. On Jan 31, 2013, at 0:47, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: Why is flight training by a HIPAT instructor so much more expensive than flight training by other instructors? I think that is a larger factor = in the =E2=80=9Creluctance by some=E2=80=9D to get training in Lancairs = than any other reason with the possible exception of availability of an HIPAT = instructor. =20 Bill B =20 _____ =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Todd Long Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:21 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members =20 The reluctance by some to regular and ongoing training baffles me. When = I picked up my "preflown" IV-P I met a lobo instructor there and did = training on the way home. I spent 3 days with him and still feel I have a lot to learn. Could I have picked it up and made it home safely? Absolutely. = Did I do the training just for insurance reasons? No. Im sure some will = disagree, but here it is: if you feel you are too good and safe already to not = need training and practice in this aircraft you have no business flying it = with passengers. Check the ego at the hanger door. This airplane needs to be flown by a well trained pilot in a professional manner. I applauded Jeff = for his efforts to start an organization dedicated to bettering the safety record of lancairs. I think the lancairs can be flown by regular private pilots with appropriate training and an appropriate attitude. Training = is not a substitute for experience. But without some training you might not live long enough to get the experience. Just because the airplane might = be capable of something doesn't mean the pilot is.=20 =20 BTW, I spend almost 15 days a year in recurrent simulator training. And still think I can benefit from one on one with a lancair instructor = every year =20 Todd Long Capt CE-750 (citation X) NetJets Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2013, at 19:41, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Scott, =20 What Lancair model do you fly? =20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:25 PM, Scott E Keighan = wrote: George, I respect your position with respect to the LOBO but I disagree that = because I choose not to be a member I am not making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the LML = amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, what I have = done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this forum. Lets just = say that I am a professional within the aviation industry ongoing for over = 30 years. I have given numerous talks to various organizations with respect = to my profession and interests. I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a better pilot or how to achieve that goal. Although I do have my own thoughts on that. Scott Keighan P.S. I fly IFR and VFR as required in both airplanes and helicopters. I = also do not have any issues getting insurance or training. _____ =20 To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500 From: gw5@me.com Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members Scott, =20 It should be obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of $40/yr = per member. This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a couple of = reasons: =20 1. The tremendous amount of information with regard to building the = various models of Lancairs, the depth of aviation experience in aerodynamics and pilotage of our Lancairs, and the knowledge base of regulations from = those who served in regulatory bodies.=20 =20 2. All of the above plus the commitment of each of us to become better pilots whether through proficiency training or increasing our ratings/knowledge base enables such a body as LOBO to better represent = us as whole whether its for insurance rates or for potential FAA governance.=20 =20 In my opinion, for the cost of 7 gallons or a half hour of flying per = year we are getting a great deal.=20 =20 In sum; you won't be a better pilot because you joined LOBO but because = you made a comittment to be a better pilot by learning from others and = taking the step to go beyond the status quo.=20 =20 I can't tell you how many pilots that I have talked to that just go = bombing through MOAs and other high density traffic areas squawking 1200 because they can without talking to anyone. Just because you can doesn't mean = it's smarter.=20 =20 It's fun to fly VFR but having the ability and knowledge to fly IFR in = your back pocket benefits you and everyone in your plane and the airspace = around you.=20 =20 George =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Sent from my iPhone On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote: Posted for Scott E Keighan : So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO I will be a=20 better pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool. How exactly does that work?=20 Other then someone getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this like a pyramid=20 scam? Don't insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If the = LOBO is so great, why are you even on the LML? I think the LOBO members should go to their own blog. I am sure they = have=20 one. Scott keighan 905 262 5997 [Whoa... lighten up. Since the LML had been operating successfully for = a number of years prior to the founding of LOBO and the LML would likely already be in touch with most folks who would be interested in joining = and participating in LOBO, an agreement was forged which allowed LOBO to use = the LML as its communications arm. It was a logical decision which would benefit both entities. Both organizations exist for the benefit of the Lancair community, especially where safety is involved. As for cost... = if $40/year is too much to pay to an organization dedicated to your safety = and actively working to help getting the Lancair fleet insured at better = rates then don't join. Also, don't participate in their discussions or learn anything from their shared knowledge... at least that way you'll get = what you paid for. But don't throw stones at folks who are trying to help... = that doesn't get us anywhere. ] =20 From: colyncase@earthlink.net Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500 To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members Dico, That's a good point. That's one reason we would like to get as many Lancair=20 pilots on the LML and into LOBO as possible. It's largely a word of = mouth process to get let people know about these two resources. Getting the = word=20 out to everyone is one of the "things we can do as a community" to = improve the=20 situation. =20 LOBO membership is $40 at www.lancairowners.com. (Marv would love contributions to keep the LML site going too!) Colyn On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident rate for = Lancairs is 500x that of commercial aviation... do we have a break down = of=20 what the rate is of LOBO members vs. Non-members. I would hope that by = just being a LOBO member and reading/learning from this group that the = accident=20 rate for us is more in line with the 300x experimental or even better = than=20 that.=20 Have we gone through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a LOBO=20 member. It would be interesting. -DIco --=20 Regards, Dico Reijers InternetWorks Ltd. 300 University Avenue Charlottetown PE, C1A 4M4 902-892-4671 (T) 888-368-9484 (F) www.internetworks.ca www.apartmentspei.com =20 =20 -- =20 For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01CDFF89.DB7D0B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hmmm!=A0 Bad analogy I would = say.=A0 Residency for a GP is three years.=A0 Residency for a surgeon is 7 years plus = whatever is added on for the cardiac fellowship, probably 2 more years.=A0 In other = words about 6 years more training!=A0 That is three times the training of the = GP!

The rate for a 30K hour instructor = is the same as for a 300 hour instructor.=A0 The rate for a newly minted = surgeon is the same as for one with 30 years practice.=A0 You can pick your surgeon and = you can pick your instructor and I think that is what is happening with the = HIPAT instructors.=A0 Is the value worth the price?=A0 A few say yes.=A0 = Apparently, the majority of Lancair drivers say no.

 

I agree with those that say more = training is needed.=A0 I just wish the training was not priced out of the market = so that it would be obtained by more folks.

 

I always thought that the HIPAT fee premium was just some sort of hazardous duty pay because they were = flying in those dangerous Lancairs!=A0 :>)

 

From: = Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Todd Long
Sent: Thursday, January = 31, 2013 7:40 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members

 

Type training is always more expensive. Why does it cost $100 to = see your GP doctor compared to $1000 for a quick consult from a heart = surgeon? I feel my time is significantly more valuable when I instruct compared to = a newly minted 300 hr TT instructor. 


Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the = iPhone.


On Jan 31, 2013, at 0:47, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Why is flight training by a HIPAT instructor so much = more expensive than flight training by other instructors?  I think that = is a larger factor in the =E2=80=9Creluctance by some=E2=80=9D to get = training in Lancairs than any other reason with the possible exception of availability of an HIPAT = instructor.

 

Bill = B

 

From: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Todd Long
Sent: Wednesday, January = 30, 2013 9:21 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Accident rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

 

The reluctance by some to regular and ongoing training baffles = me. When I picked up my "preflown" IV-P I met a lobo instructor there = and did training on the way home. I spent 3 days with him and still feel I have = a lot to learn. Could I have picked it up and made it home safely? Absolutely. = Did I do the training just for insurance reasons? No. Im sure some will = disagree, but here it is: if you feel you are too good and safe already to not need = training and practice in this aircraft you have no business flying it with = passengers. Check the ego at the hanger door. This airplane needs to be flown by a = well trained pilot in a professional manner. I applauded Jeff for his efforts = to start an organization dedicated to bettering the safety record of = lancairs. I think the lancairs can be flown by regular private pilots with = appropriate training and an appropriate attitude. Training is not a substitute for experience. But without some training you might not live long enough to = get the experience. Just because the airplane might be capable of something = doesn't mean the pilot is. 

 

BTW, I spend almost 15 days a year in recurrent simulator = training. And still think I can benefit from one on one with a lancair instructor = every year

 

Todd Long

Capt CE-750 (citation = X)

NetJets


Sent from my iPad


On Jan 30, 2013, at 19:41, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

Scott,

 

What Lancair model do you = fly?

 

Jeff

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:25 PM, Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca= > wrote:

George,
I respect your position with respect to the LOBO but I disagree that = because I choose not to be a member I am not
making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the LML = amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, what I have = done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this forum. Lets just = say that I am a professional within the aviation industry ongoing for over 30 = years. I have given numerous talks to various organizations with respect to my profession and interests.

I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a better pilot or how to = achieve that goal.  Although I do have my own thoughts on that.

Scott Keighan

P.S. I fly IFR and VFR as required in both airplanes and helicopters. I = also do not have any issues getting insurance or = training.

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500
From: gw5@me.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

Scott,

 

It should be obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of = $40/yr per member. This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a couple of = reasons:

 

1. The tremendous amount of information with regard to building = the various models of Lancairs, the depth of aviation experience in = aerodynamics and pilotage of our Lancairs, and the knowledge base of regulations from = those who served in regulatory = bodies. 

 

2. All of the above plus the commitment of each of us to become = better pilots whether through proficiency training or increasing our = ratings/knowledge base enables such a body as LOBO to better represent us as whole whether = its for insurance rates or for potential FAA = governance. 

 

In my opinion, for the cost of 7 gallons or a half hour of = flying per year we are getting a great = deal. 

 

In sum; you won't be a better pilot because you joined LOBO but = because you made a comittment to be a better pilot by learning from others and = taking the step to go beyond the status = quo. 

 

I can't tell you how many pilots that I have talked to that just = go bombing through MOAs and other high density traffic areas squawking 1200 because they can without talking to anyone. Just because you can doesn't = mean it's smarter. 

 

It's fun to fly VFR but having the ability and knowledge to fly = IFR in your back pocket benefits you and everyone in your plane and the = airspace around you. 

 

George

 

 

 

 

 



Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote:


Posted for Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca= >:

So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO I will be a =
better pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool.
How exactly does that work?
Other then someone getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this like a = pyramid
scam?

Don't insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If the = LOBO is
so great, why are you even on the LML?
I think the LOBO members should go to their own blog. I am sure they = have
one.
Scott keighan
905 262 5997

[Whoa... lighten up.  Since the LML had been operating successfully = for a number of years prior to the founding of LOBO and the LML would likely = already be in touch with most folks who would be interested in joining and participating in LOBO, an agreement was forged which allowed LOBO to use = the LML as its communications arm.  It was a logical decision which = would benefit both entities.  Both organizations exist for the benefit of = the Lancair community, especially where safety is involved.  As for = cost... if $40/year is too much to pay to an organization dedicated to your safety = and actively working to help getting  the Lancair fleet insured at = better rates then don't join. Also, don't participate in their discussions or = learn anything from their shared knowledge... at least that way you'll get = what you paid for. But don't throw stones at folks who are trying to help... that doesn't get us anywhere.  <marv>   =  ]

 



From: colyncase@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members

Dico,
That's a good point.   That's one reason we would like to get = as many Lancair
pilots on the LML and into LOBO as possible.    It's largely a word of mouth
process to get let people know about these two = resources.  Getting the word
out to everyone is one of the "things we can do as a = community" to improve the
situation.  
LOBO membership is $40 at www.lancairowners.com.
(Marv would love contributions to keep the LML site going too!)
Colyn
On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident rate for =
Lancairs is 500x that of commercial aviation... do we have a break down = of
what the rate is of LOBO members vs. Non-members.  I would = hope that by just
being a LOBO member and reading/learning from this group that the = accident
rate for us is more in line with the 300x experimental or even better = than
that.

Have we gone through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a LOBO =
member.  It would be interesting.
-DIco

--
Regards,

Dico Reijers

InternetWorks Ltd.

300 University = Avenue
Charlottetown PE, C1A = 4M4

902-892-4671 (T)
888-368-9484 (F)

www.internetworks.ca
www.apartmentspei.com


     

 

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