X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:19:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com ([17.158.58.247] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6037791 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:29:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.58.247; envelope-from=gw5@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Jpk+pqwKPaX1ZTJtoFQ4pg)" Received: from [192.168.1.144] (cpe-076-182-074-011.nc.res.rr.com [76.182.74.11]) by nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MHG00IE6UROOA40@nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:28:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-31_01:2013-01-30,2013-01-31,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301300227 From: George Wehrung X-Original-Message-id: <2A0EBC0F-9461-4CA7-8E8E-80A706E99D94@me.com> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:58:35 +0430 References: X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) --Boundary_(ID_Jpk+pqwKPaX1ZTJtoFQ4pg) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hey Scott, I didn't mean to personally attack you or anyone in particular nor imply = that because you didn't join LOBO you weren't making the commitment to = be a better pilot. However, I feel that those of us who do join are = joining in hopes of being better aviators with particular regard to the = Lancair aircraft we fly, to have our interests as a group voiced to = Lancair, the FAA, EAA, insurance companies, etc., as well as the = enjoyment of the social aspect that comes with any type club. =20 It sounds like you would benefit the community with your experience. So = in general I believe based on listening to the forums, the 2nd owners of = Lancairs and or those that are moving into high performance aircraft = from slower or more forgiving machines are some people who could benefit = from being affiliated with LOBO. Some such people are like myself, with = lots of military experience in jets and turbo-props and now fly all over = the world in diverse environments as a paid professional and also = possess extensive experience in aviation safety but hardly possess a = lick of experience in general aviation, let alone Lancairs. I didn't = even know LOBO, the LML, Lancair_ES on Yahoo groups, etc. existed when I = started flying the ES I was destined to buy a year or so ago. So I am = the guy who greatly benefits from spending $40.00 a year and associating = myself with more experienced aviators such as yourself and I would be = willing to bet there are lots more like myself. Just look up the = questions I have posted over the last year or so. =20 Take care and hope to meet you one day at a fly-in. On Jan 31, 2013, at 4:55 AM, Scott E Keighan = wrote: > George, > I respect your position with respect to the LOBO but I disagree that = because I choose not to be a member I am not > making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the LML = amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, what I = have done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this forum. = Lets just say that I am a professional within the aviation industry = ongoing for over 30 years. I have given numerous talks to various = organizations with respect to my profession and interests. >=20 > I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a better pilot or how = to achieve that goal. Although I do have my own thoughts on that. >=20 > Scott Keighan >=20 > P.S. I fly IFR and VFR as required in both airplanes and helicopters. = I also do not have any issues getting insurance or training. >=20 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500 > From: gw5@me.com > Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >=20 > Scott, >=20 > It should be obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of $40/yr = per member. This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a couple of = reasons: >=20 > 1. The tremendous amount of information with regard to building the = various models of Lancairs, the depth of aviation experience in = aerodynamics and pilotage of our Lancairs, and the knowledge base of = regulations from those who served in regulatory bodies.=20 >=20 > 2. All of the above plus the commitment of each of us to become better = pilots whether through proficiency training or increasing our = ratings/knowledge base enables such a body as LOBO to better represent = us as whole whether its for insurance rates or for potential FAA = governance.=20 >=20 > In my opinion, for the cost of 7 gallons or a half hour of flying per = year we are getting a great deal.=20 >=20 > In sum; you won't be a better pilot because you joined LOBO but = because you made a comittment to be a better pilot by learning from = others and taking the step to go beyond the status quo.=20 >=20 > I can't tell you how many pilots that I have talked to that just go = bombing through MOAs and other high density traffic areas squawking 1200 = because they can without talking to anyone. Just because you can doesn't = mean it's smarter.=20 >=20 > It's fun to fly VFR but having the ability and knowledge to fly IFR in = your back pocket benefits you and everyone in your plane and the = airspace around you.=20 >=20 > George >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote: >=20 >=20 > Posted for Scott E Keighan : >=20 > So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO I will be = a=20 > better pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool. > How exactly does that work?=20 > Other then someone getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this like a = pyramid=20 > scam? >=20 > Don't insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If the = LOBO is=20 > so great, why are you even on the LML? > I think the LOBO members should go to their own blog. I am sure they = have=20 > one. > Scott keighan > 905 262 5997 >=20 > [Whoa... lighten up. Since the LML had been operating successfully = for a number of years prior to the founding of LOBO and the LML would = likely already be in touch with most folks who would be interested in = joining and participating in LOBO, an agreement was forged which allowed = LOBO to use the LML as its communications arm. It was a logical = decision which would benefit both entities. Both organizations exist = for the benefit of the Lancair community, especially where safety is = involved. As for cost... if $40/year is too much to pay to an = organization dedicated to your safety and actively working to help = getting the Lancair fleet insured at better rates then don't join. = Also, don't participate in their discussions or learn anything from = their shared knowledge... at least that way you'll get what you paid = for. But don't throw stones at folks who are trying to help... that = doesn't get us anywhere. ] > =20 >=20 >=20 > From: colyncase@earthlink.net > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs non-members >=20 > Dico, > That's a good point. That's one reason we would like to get as many = Lancair=20 > pilots on the LML and into LOBO as possible. It's largely a word of = mouth=20 > process to get let people know about these two resources. Getting the = word=20 > out to everyone is one of the "things we can do as a community" to = improve the=20 > situation. =20 > LOBO membership is $40 at www.lancairowners.com. > (Marv would love contributions to keep the LML site going too!) > Colyn > On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident rate = for=20 > Lancairs is 500x that of commercial aviation... do we have a break = down of=20 > what the rate is of LOBO members vs. Non-members. I would hope that = by just=20 > being a LOBO member and reading/learning from this group that the = accident=20 > rate for us is more in line with the 300x experimental or even better = than=20 > that.=20 >=20 > Have we gone through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a = LOBO=20 > member. It would be interesting. > -DIco >=20 > --=20 > Regards, >=20 > Dico Reijers >=20 > InternetWorks Ltd. >=20 > 300 University Avenue > Charlottetown > PE, C1A 4M4 >=20 > 902-892-4671 (T) > 888-368-9484 (F) >=20 > www.internetworks.ca > www.apartmentspei.com >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --Boundary_(ID_Jpk+pqwKPaX1ZTJtoFQ4pg) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hey Scott,

I = didn't mean to personally attack you or anyone in particular nor imply = that because you didn't join LOBO you weren't making the commitment to = be a better pilot.  However, I feel that those of us who do join = are joining in hopes of being better aviators with particular regard to = the Lancair aircraft we fly, to have our interests as a group voiced to = Lancair, the FAA, EAA, insurance companies, etc., as well as the = enjoyment of the social aspect that comes with any type club. =  

It sounds like you would benefit the = community with your experience.  So in general I believe based on = listening to the forums, the 2nd owners of Lancairs and or those that = are moving into high performance aircraft from slower or more forgiving = machines are some people who could benefit from being affiliated with = LOBO.  Some such people are like myself, with lots of military = experience in jets and turbo-props and now fly all over the world in = diverse environments as a paid professional and also possess extensive = experience in aviation safety but hardly possess a lick of experience in = general aviation, let alone Lancairs.  I didn't even know LOBO, the = LML, Lancair_ES on Yahoo groups, etc. existed when I started flying the = ES I was destined to buy a year or so ago.  So I am the guy who = greatly benefits from spending $40.00 a year and associating myself with = more experienced aviators such as yourself and I would be willing to bet = there are lots more like myself.  Just look up the questions I have = posted over the last year or so.  

Take = care and hope to meet you one day at a = fly-in.




On Jan 31, 2013, at 4:55 AM, Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca&= gt; wrote:

George,
I respect your position with respect to the LOBO = but I disagree that because I choose not to be a member I am = not
making a commitment to being a better pilot. I am a member of the = LML amount numerous other organizations. You have no idea whom I am, = what I have done or what I am doing. I will not get into it here on this = forum. Lets just say that I am a professional within the aviation = industry ongoing for over 30 years. I have given numerous talks to = various organizations with respect to my profession and = interests.

I will not get into whom I think is a safer or a = better pilot or how to achieve that goal.  Although I do have = my own thoughts on that.

Scott Keighan

P.S. I fly IFR and = VFR as required in both airplanes and helicopters. I also do not have = any issues getting insurance or training.

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: = Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:30:58 -0500
From: gw5@me.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Accident = rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

Scott,

It should be = obvious that LOBO is not going to get rich off of $40/yr per member. = This rate should be viewed as a great rate for a couple of = reasons:

1. The tremendous amount of = information with regard to building the various models of Lancairs, the = depth of aviation experience in aerodynamics and pilotage of our = Lancairs, and the knowledge base of regulations from those who served in = regulatory bodies. 

2. All of the above = plus the commitment of each of us to become better pilots whether = through proficiency training or increasing our ratings/knowledge base = enables such a body as LOBO to better represent us as whole whether its = for insurance rates or for potential FAA = governance. 

In my opinion, for the cost = of 7 gallons or a half hour of flying per year we are getting a great = deal. 

In sum; you won't be a better pilot = because you joined LOBO but because you made a comittment to be a better = pilot by learning from others and taking the step to go beyond the = status quo. 

I can't tell you how many = pilots that I have talked to that just go bombing through MOAs and other = high density traffic areas squawking 1200 because they can without = talking to anyone. Just because you can doesn't mean it's = smarter. 

It's fun to fly VFR but having = the ability and knowledge to fly IFR in your back pocket benefits you = and everyone in your plane and the airspace around = you. 

George







Sent from = my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:27, marv@lancair.net wrote:


Posted for = Scott E Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca&= gt;:

So let me get this right. If I pay you $40 to join the LOBO = I will be a 
better = pilot then a non-LOBO member, cool.
How exactly does that work? 
Other then someone = getting $40 richer, I don't see it. Is this like a pyramid 
scam?

Don't = insult non members and get a life. As a matter of fact. If the LOBO = is 
so great, why = are you even on the LML?
I think the LOBO members should go to their = own blog. I am sure they have 
one.
Scott = keighan
905 262 5997

[Whoa... lighten up.  Since the LML = had been operating successfully for a number of years prior to the = founding of LOBO and the LML would likely already be in touch with most = folks who would be interested in joining and participating in LOBO, an = agreement was forged which allowed LOBO to use the LML as its = communications arm.  It was a logical decision which would benefit = both entities.  Both organizations exist for the benefit of the = Lancair community, especially where safety is involved.  As for = cost... if $40/year is too much to pay to an organization dedicated to = your safety and actively working to help getting  the Lancair fleet = insured at better rates then don't join. Also, don't participate in = their discussions or learn anything from their shared knowledge... at = least that way you'll get what you paid for. But don't throw stones at = folks who are trying to help... that doesn't get us anywhere. =  <marv>    ]
 


From: colyncase@earthlink.net
Dat= e: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:05 -0500
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject= : [LML] Re: Accident rate for LOBO members vs = non-members

Dico,
That's a good point.   That's one = reason we would like to get as many Lancair 
pilots on the LML and = into LOBO as possible.    It's largely a word of = mouth 
process to = get let people know about these two resources.  Getting the = word 
out to = everyone is one of the "things we can do as a community" to improve = the 
situation.   
LOBO membership is = $40 at www.lancairowners.com.
(Marv would love = contributions to keep the LML site going too!)
Colyn
On Jan 29, = 2013, at 9:41 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:If the accident rate for 
Lancairs is 500x that = of commercial aviation... do we have a break down of 
what the rate is of = LOBO members vs. Non-members.  I would hope that by just 
being a LOBO member and = reading/learning from this group that the accident 
rate for us is more in = line with the 300x experimental or even better than 
that. 

Have we gone = through the Lancair accidents to see if the PIC was a LOBO 
member.  It = would be interesting.
-DIco

-- 
Regards,

Dico = Reijers

InternetWorks Ltd.

300 University = Avenue
Charlottetown
PE, C1A 4M4

902-892-4671 = (T)
888-368-9484 (F)

www.internetworks.ca
www.apartmentspei.com


   =   

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