X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:53:16 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yh0-f42.google.com ([209.85.213.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6036837 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:50:17 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.42; envelope-from=mehapgood@gmail.com Received: by mail-yh0-f42.google.com with SMTP id w49so264517yhw.29 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.189.71 with SMTP id b47mr5885574yhn.48.1359557382321; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.2.96] (rrcs-70-61-86-226.midsouth.biz.rr.com. [70.61.86.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z61sm2359871yhn.12.2013.01.30.06.49.37 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Sender: Matt Hapgood User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 X-Original-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:49:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Safety From: Matt Hapgood X-Original-To: Lancair List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Safety In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3442384179_17131813" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3442384179_17131813 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I've landed both ways at Aspen several times. Had one go-around coming fro= m the "unusual" side. A 172 with a student and instructor landed short of th= e runway JUST in front of me. I had a go around. It was hair-raising, especially since I quickly found out why they had ended up short of the runway =AD a massive down-draft about 1/4 mile from the numbers. I could barely climb. =20 Matt From: Ted Noel Reply-To: Lancair List Date: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:54 AM To: Lancair List Subject: [LML] Re: Safety =20 Ed, =20 Aspen is a one-way airport. I'm surprised you didn't end up riding the Tow= n Lift.=20 =20 On the other thread, the issue is L-IV's and accidents. As a physician fro= m a specialty (Anesthesiology) that dealt with high insurance rates, I think = a couple of comments may be useful. =20 1. The unidentified esophageal intubation used to create a high-priced brain injury due to lack of oxygen. In 1986, we got pulse oximetry and capnography in the operating room. Capnography gives a 100% accurate indication of improper intubation. Oximetry gives a nearly equal indication of oxygen in the blood. The combination dropped our liability insurance rates by 75%, and the brain-injured patient from unidentified esophageal intubation is a rarity. =20 In the L-IV, the parallel would be a calibrated AOA. Just like capnography and oximetry, you can ignore the AOA, but with the AOA, you have a very goo= d way of staying away from the stall. Properly sized and positioned stall strips would tame stall behavior as well. And cuffs or VG's promise to be even better. =20 All of these are pilot-independent ways of reducing stall/spin accidents. =20 2. Training. In Anesthesiology, training is supposed to be the way to keep skills sharp. The real answer is that constant use of those skills is far more important. Continuing medical education and recertification are worthless. My group had to fire a member for incompetence. He had all the papers you could ask for, but was dangerous. You can't certify judgment. =20 This isn't to say training isn't necessary. Rather, it isn't sufficient, and I'm not sure what would be truly sufficient. Recurrent check rides are probably better than nothing, but accidents show they aren't sufficient. =20 Ted Noel =20 On 1/29/2013 12:15 AM, Ed Gray wrote: > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Grayhawk, good advice. The =B3unable=B2 response is one we are reluctant to = use. > I was told by Aspen tower to =B3go around=B2 in a Mooney 231 about 10 feet ab= ove > the numbers with flaps and airbrakes out, because a dolt in a Jetstar was > parked on the opposite end of the 8,000 foot runway. I obeyed the tower = and > scared the crap out of my passenger clawing for altitude over the ski lif= ts at > the east end of the airport. I immediately wondered why I didn=B9t say =B3un= able=B2 > or just land. The tower guys are not there for your safety, just to prov= ide > traffic separation. Ed Gray Dallas 360 PS Try getting insurance wit= hout > the IFR rating! > =20 > =20 =20 --B_3442384179_17131813 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I've landed both w= ays at Aspen several times.  Had one go-around coming from the "unusual= " side.  A 172 with a student and instructor landed short of the runway= JUST in front of me. I had a go around.  It was hair-raising, especial= ly since I quickly found out why they had ended up short of the runway ̵= 1; a massive down-draft about 1/4 mile from the numbers.  I could barel= y climb.  

Matt

From: Ted Noel <tednoel@cfl.rr.com>
Repl= y-To: Lancair List <lml@la= ncaironline.net>
Date: Wedn= esday, January 30, 2013 8:54 AM
To: Lancair List <lml@lancaironline.= net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Saf= ety

Ed,

Aspen is a one-way airport. I'm surprised you didn't end up riding the Town Lift.

On the other thread, the issue is L-IV's and accidents. As a physician from a specialty (Anesthesiology) that dealt with high insurance rates, I think a couple of comments may be useful.

1. The unidentified esophageal intubation used to create a high-priced brain injury due to lack of oxygen. In 1986, we got pulse oximetry and capnography in the operating room. Capnography gives a 100% accurate indication of improper intubation. Oximetry gives a nearly equal indication of oxygen in the blood. The combination dropped our liability insurance rates by 75%, and the brain-injured patient from unidentified esophageal intubation is a rarity.

In the L-IV, the parallel would be a calibrated AOA. Just like capnography and oximetry, you can ignore the AOA, but with the AOA, you have a very good way of staying away from the stall. Properly sized and positioned stall strips would tame stall behavior as well. And cuffs or VG's promise to be even better.

All of these are pilot-independent ways of reducing stall/spin accidents.

2. Training. In Anesthesiology, training is supposed to be the way to keep skills sharp. The real answer is that constant use of those skills is far more important. Continuing medical education and recertification are worthless. My group had to fire a member for incompetence. He had all the papers you could ask for, but was dangerous. You can't certify judgment.

This isn't to say training isn't necessary. Rather, it isn't sufficient, and I'm not sure what would be truly sufficient. Recurrent check rides are probably better than nothing, but accidents show they aren't sufficient.

Ted Noel

On 1/29/2013 12:15 AM, Ed Gray wrote:

 

Grayhawk, good advice.  The “unable” response is one we = are reluctant to use.  I was told by Aspen tower to “go aroundR= 21; in a Mooney 231 about 10 feet above the numbers with flaps and airbrakes out, because a dolt in a Jetstar was parked on the opposite end of the 8,000 foot runway.  I obeyed the tower= and scared the crap out of my passenger clawing for altitude over the ski lifts at the east end of the airport.  I immediately wondered why I didn’t say “unable”= ; or just land.  The tower guys are not there for your safety, just = to provide traffic separation.  Ed Gray  Dallas  36= 0   PS  Try getting insurance without the IFR rating!

=
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