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| Normally I am a lurker on this list, rarely do I contribute or comment. Couple of corrections and clarifications, and an additional opinion, with the intent to help--not opine incessantly , I've been flying my Legacy since 2007 and have about 270 hours in-type and have about 1500 total time (at the risk of redundancy -I'm not a high time pilot--hopefully a decent pilot).
When the Legacy spins it will wind up like a top very quickly--I've seen that first hand. When we did out stall work six or so years ago, we had about 5000 feet of height AGL when we initiated our stall. I don't know how much sky we consumed in our multi-spin situation. It's my opinion that we made it out of the double-spin with my instructors skill and a spoon full of luck. The plane is a very responsive lawn dart. And that goes exponential in the case in a spin. Too much opposite rudder and the plane will initiate a secondary spin--like that which happened to us. So you have to "get the feel" for the correct amount of opposite rudder: too much and the plane will go into a secondary spin. If I had to snatch a probability statistic from thin air, I'd say a proficient pilot has about a 75% chance of "getting the feel" on the first spin recovery. Not a bad batting average if we are playing baseball, but I'd not take that number up at 5000 feet in a spirited Bronco like a Legacy.
In a certified plane like a C172 or a experimental plane like a Yak 18T, I'd say the risk of death by practicing stalls and spins are nil, when skilled instruction is present. I would not say that is the case in the Legacy. So here's a rhetorical question: if the probably goes up to a statistically significant percentage that you will die if you practice spins in a Legacy, is it worth the risk?
Back in WWII the US government trained over 100,000 pilots. At that time training was more like, go out and do it--we've got a war to fight. I guess the implicit message was: pilots are like Doritos--we can make more. Well, training techniques changed as a result of the plethora of casualties resulting from the "just do it" mentality.
In reading over the contributions on this subject, I think the best advise is to get a feel for the stall speed by stalling just before touch down.
Abe Gaskins
MGM Industries
Direct line 615-265-2046
Cell 615-642-2310 Skype Name: abe.gaskins
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."--Confucius
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark Twain
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net> wrote:
Abe, thanks for sharing, like many of our brethren on this site. Info like that on behavior in off-nominal conditions is extremely valuable.
I notice that neither the CAFE testers, nor the Lancair demo pilots, ever intentionally stalled a Legacy (or, I assume, any other Lancair). Now I see why.
Humorous anecdote: The best lessons I ever learned were from instructors who *intentionally* let me screw up -- to their everlasting credit, because they were taking a certain amount of risk in doing so. In particular, my primary instructor one day finally just stopped telling me to keep the ball in the middle, and when I stalled the Cherokee it entered a spin which my instructor immediately recovered (1/4 turn or so). After I stopped shaking, I NEVER FORGOT TO KEEP THE BALL CENTERED AGAIN. : )
I have adopted the same technique (in certified training aircraft) with students who just can't learn any other way, and it's highly effective.
Charley
On Jan 3, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Abe Gaskins wrote: My 0.02. I transitioned from a C-172 to a Legacy about 4 years ago. I had enough sense to get some transition training and had enough sense to realize my limitations. I had an instructor go up and do some stall work with me. I initiated the stall. The plane stalled and I must have not had the ball centered. (maybe I did--read the NOTE BELOW for a possible scenario that could kill a few good fellows). If the ball is not centered, my experience was very little warning to the stall and/or spin--and when she stalled, she snapped violently into a spin (remember I transitioned from a 172 so I was a low time pilot--no advanced training and no military training). I immediately told the instructor: " you've got the controls."
He neutralized the aileron input and pushed forward to break out of the spin. Upon doing so, the bird subsequently snapped more violently into an opposite spin. My instructor was/is a very low-key, non panicking personality. Upon entry into the second spin in the opposite direction his only response during the second spin was: "OH SHIT!" From which he initiated standard recovery techniques and he got us out of the situation. I had no audible response, but let me tell you, my heart rate spiked like scared field mouse. Years later I asked one of the learnered pilots in the Lancair community how close we were to a very dire outcome (I'm keeping names out of this email other than my own). He said:" only thing I can say is, you were very close. Based upon Reynolds Numbers and theory, the Legacy will not come out of a spin after 2 or 3 turns." Those are his words not mine. I write these words with trepidation, because I do not want to cause problems for myself nor the people who helped me in my training. However, I do think that it is not advisable to make a blanket statement that everyone should do stall training. And my purpose it to help people make prudent decisions regarding their own training, and, hope that my comments inch our community towards better safety and many fruitful years of flying.
Years later In my case I have a partnership in a Russian Yak 18T. On my quest for a $200 breakfast on Saturday mornings I do spins, loops, rolls, cuban eights, immelmans...and more fun S&*T. I think I am a better pilot for getting aerobatic experience. If your not current in aerobatic work (or proficient) then I would not recommend doing stalls in the Legacy. I would recommend getting some spin training in a more docile aircraft. And then if you want to do some stall work, find someone in the Lancair community that would be willing to help you out. I love my Legacy, but I have no intention of stalling mine if I can help it.
NOTE BELOW If your are flying with a glass cockpit, and relying it for situation awareness, the turn coordinator has to be calibrated. If it is not calibrated then you might be skidding across the sky with "the ball centered", which might be OK in cruise, but it certainly is not OK in speeds close to a stall configuration.
Abe Gaskins
MGM Industries
Direct line 615-265-2046
Cell 615-642-2310 Skype Name: abe.gaskins
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."--Confucius
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark Twain
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