X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 01:50:37 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm19.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.146] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5994294 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:35:03 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.146; envelope-from=browncc1@verizon.net Received: from [98.139.44.105] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 02:34:27 -0000 Received: from [98.138.85.46] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 02:34:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp103.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 02:34:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 827069.44659.bm@smtp103.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: epdk.TEVM1mFqw2HSMAQkHD9Ket9PnQUyNenK.cFdzIfEAw swHwb8blba7CDoGxnBSP5vBPMG8kXlOYmyG16Cfikftvo1qBTIHAEPJY4kQD ufRUBkiiCSvVDcr7dJvIbSloRnkc_MuuVOiWBAXT1aiTsLTsBFrjDowR6Jc9 bteK51hkq.ssW2P.7QTQ9dLupBXeetECZP0.3KhkK3NninhKfe7FkU99R2Sx zg9EG8INwjmHiRmT7BsY2r9Phg6A5mridHqp1IHH00J7tDGT94xd5URmsBSp bHmMFsQwALLEU94.TvIF73DNVc8Ws0Ol5fanfMP4imbX6JWi3QYgqUTDIjZ8 aa4ADvRh2utMwRKiLvSzyJ6PD1b_vAqGV7_59nXstKjUUkgQsWgz37qZWrib OHs542GcpkWvcZVYTit4ckMy81ehF01iJeBJO500QY5QdLIQV7MPaUfA6QYT 4njlSqAh7vI2rH46O9Xmgg_FT4.m6YcYhVET5g8C2F.BujzdZnsJwhGV8qEa QEg2KFUSV1EvPN40g3drtT65nT6IIOmmwZDn0U.OGmT1X2XjjSDwCUtoaXyD 0nDMNIhHbtT2ZN2O_9vVp X-Yahoo-SMTP: F49l9g6swBC0R9n8vJIbm7Tf3P8Xlmia8rHIwTlO__Ml Received: from chass-imac-2.home (browncc1@72.64.105.53 with plain) by smtp103.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 04 Jan 2013 02:34:26 +0000 UTC From: Charles Brown Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5-1002543396 Subject: Re: [LML] : stalls X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:34:25 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <9253472C-791E-490C-B5E6-7B8DC2C080B3@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) --Apple-Mail-5-1002543396 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Abe, thanks for sharing, like many of our brethren on this site. Info = like that on behavior in off-nominal conditions is extremely valuable. =20= I notice that neither the CAFE testers, nor the Lancair demo pilots, = ever intentionally stalled a Legacy (or, I assume, any other Lancair). = Now I see why. Humorous anecdote: The best lessons I ever learned were from = instructors who *intentionally* let me screw up -- to their everlasting = credit, because they were taking a certain amount of risk in doing so. = In particular, my primary instructor one day finally just stopped = telling me to keep the ball in the middle, and when I stalled the = Cherokee it entered a spin which my instructor immediately recovered = (1/4 turn or so). After I stopped shaking, I NEVER FORGOT TO KEEP THE = BALL CENTERED AGAIN. : ) I have adopted the same technique (in certified training aircraft) with = students who just can't learn any other way, and it's highly effective. = =20 Charley On Jan 3, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Abe Gaskins wrote: My 0.02. I transitioned from a C-172 to a Legacy about 4 years ago. I = had enough sense to get some transition training and had enough sense to = realize my limitations. I had an instructor go up and do some stall = work with me. I initiated the stall. The plane stalled and I must have = not had the ball centered. (maybe I did--read the NOTE BELOW for a = possible scenario that could kill a few good fellows). If the ball is = not centered, my experience was very little warning to the stall and/or = spin--and when she stalled, she snapped violently into a spin (remember = I transitioned from a 172 so I was a low time pilot--no advanced = training and no military training). I immediately told the instructor: = " you've got the controls." =20 He neutralized the aileron input and pushed forward to break out of the = spin. Upon doing so, the bird subsequently snapped more violently into = an opposite spin. My instructor was/is a very low-key, non panicking = personality. Upon entry into the second spin in the opposite direction = his only response during the second spin was: "OH SHIT!" =46rom which = he initiated standard recovery techniques and he got us out of the = situation. I had no audible response, but let me tell you, my heart rate = spiked like scared field mouse. Years later I asked one of the = learnered pilots in the Lancair community how close we were to a very = dire outcome (I'm keeping names out of this email other than my own). He = said:" only thing I can say is, you were very close. Based upon Reynolds = Numbers and theory, the Legacy will not come out of a spin after 2 or 3 = turns." Those are his words not mine. I write these words with = trepidation, because I do not want to cause problems for myself nor the = people who helped me in my training. However, I do think that it is not = advisable to make a blanket statement that everyone should do stall = training. And my purpose it to help people make prudent decisions = regarding their own training, and, hope that my comments inch our = community towards better safety and many fruitful years of flying. =20 Years later In my case I have a partnership in a Russian Yak 18T. On my quest for a = $200 breakfast on Saturday mornings I do spins, loops, rolls, cuban = eights, immelmans...and more fun S&*T. I think I am a better pilot for = getting aerobatic experience. If your not current in aerobatic work (or = proficient) then I would not recommend doing stalls in the Legacy. I = would recommend getting some spin training in a more docile aircraft. = And then if you want to do some stall work, find someone in the Lancair = community that would be willing to help you out. I love my Legacy, but = I have no intention of stalling mine if I can help it.=20 NOTE BELOW If your are flying with a glass cockpit, and relying it for situation = awareness, the turn coordinator has to be calibrated. If it is not = calibrated then you might be skidding across the sky with "the ball = centered", which might be OK in cruise, but it certainly is not OK in = speeds close to a stall configuration.=20 Abe Gaskins MGM Industries Direct line 615-265-2046 Cell 615-642-2310 Skype Name: abe.gaskins "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your = life."--Confucius=20 "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain=20= "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark = Twain --Apple-Mail-5-1002543396 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii My = 0.02.  I transitioned from a C-172 to a Legacy about 4 years ago. =  I had enough sense to get some transition training and had enough = sense to realize my limitations.  I had an instructor go up and do = some stall work with me.  I initiated the stall.  The plane = stalled and I must have not had the ball centered.  (maybe I = did--read the NOTE BELOW for a possible scenario that could = kill a few good fellows).  If the ball is not centered, my = experience was very little warning to the stall and/or spin--and when = she stalled, she snapped violently into a spin (remember I transitioned = from a 172 so I was a low time pilot--no advanced training and no = military training).  I immediately told the instructor: " you've = got the controls."  

He neutralized the aileron input and pushed = forward to break out of the spin.  Upon doing so, the bird = subsequently snapped more violently into an opposite spin.  My = instructor was/is a very low-key, non panicking personality. =  Upon entry into the second spin in the opposite direction his only = response during the second spin was: "OH SHIT!"  =46rom which he = initiated standard recovery techniques and he got us out of the = situation. I had no audible response, but let me tell you, my heart rate = spiked like scared field mouse.  Years later I asked one of the = learnered pilots in the Lancair community how close we were to a very = dire outcome (I'm keeping names out of this email other than my own). He = said:" only thing I can say is, you were very close. Based upon Reynolds = Numbers and theory, the Legacy will not come out of a spin after 2 or 3 = turns."   Those are his words not mine.  I write these words = with trepidation, because I do not want to cause problems for = myself nor the people who helped me in my training.  However, I do = think that it is not advisable to make a blanket statement that everyone = should do stall training.  And my purpose it to help people make = prudent decisions regarding their own training, and, hope that my = comments inch our community towards better safety and many fruitful = years of flying.   

Years later
In my case I have a partnership in a Russian Yak = 18T.  On my quest for a $200 breakfast on Saturday mornings I do = spins, loops, rolls, cuban eights, immelmans...and more fun S&*T. =   I think I am a better pilot for getting aerobatic experience. If = your not current in aerobatic work (or proficient) then I would not = recommend doing stalls in the Legacy.  I would recommend getting = some spin training in a more docile aircraft. And then if you want to do = some stall work, find someone in the Lancair community that would be = willing to help you out.  I love my Legacy, but I have no intention = of stalling mine if I can help it. 

NOTE = BELOW
If = your are flying with a glass cockpit, and relying it = for situation awareness, the turn coordinator has to = be calibrated.  If it is not calibrated then you might be skidding = across the sky with "the ball centered", which might be OK in cruise, = but it certainly is not OK in speeds close to a stall = configuration. 

Abe Gaskins
MGM = Industries
Direct line 615-265-2046
Cell 615-642-2310 =           Skype Name: = abe.gaskins
"Choose a = job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your = life."--Confucius =
"I have never let my schooling = interfere with my education"--Mark Twain 
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, = bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark Twain
= --Apple-Mail-5-1002543396--