X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 18:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com ([209.85.223.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5994184 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 18:21:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.223.169; envelope-from=donkarich@gmail.com Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id c14so19298836ieb.28 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.91.169 with SMTP id cf9mr44007589igb.44.1357255233664; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.71.74 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:20:33 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls From: Don Karich X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3b9dad12755304d26a9cf1 --e89a8f3b9dad12755304d26a9cf1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the nose does not drop crisply upon stall, then i'd be concerned about CG. perhaps its load is too far aft, or if this happens on minimum weight and fuel, perhaps need to move battery forward or to firewall. In any case, keep the damn ball in the middle. One caution about cg too far forward is loss of speed at cruise. . On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:08 PM, DW wrote: > Jeff, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the > recovery difficulty, such as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown man= y > hours in an Extra 300 and that big rudder responds well. I think that > anyone flying a high performance experimental should have some basic > aerobatic stall and spin training in an aircraft designed for and with a > good instructor, after all you can stall in almost any configuration > unintentionally and should know how to recover. An example can be a sudde= n > wind shift or gust. Another example could be on climb out, with power y= ou > have right rudder in to keep the ball centered, a sudden strong wind gust > from the rear creates a shear that stalls a wing or both, the nose now > drops and if power is not reduced if needed, and or the rudder inputs ar= e > not changed if needed for the new attitude keeping the ball centered, > things could get ugly. Keeping the ball centered is very important, even = a > little off in the wrong configuration can get you into trouble =93step on= the > ball=94 is what I learned from the start. These are relatively light airc= raft > and they are in the experimental category for a reason. Would it be > possible as a group that we can collectively come up with a list of the > performance habits of these aircraft from those of actual experience for > others to review the flight characteristic=92s and compare notes? **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Dwills**** > > 360 Builder **** > > ** ** > > *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of > *Jeff Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM > *To:* lml@lancaironline.net > *Subject:* [LML] Re: stalls**** > > ** ** > > No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the appropriate training, > fly responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the stall characteristi= cs > including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. Remember, loss of > control accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents. Just practicing > stalls in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise IMHO. Many pilots > need a thorough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want a good course o= f > instruction on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery course.**** > > ** ** > > Best regards,**** > > ** ** > > Jeff**** > > > On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" > wrote:**** > > Then you are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be > destroyed before they kill the people in them. It seems that Lancair has= a > problem on their hands with a very bad design.**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *vtailjeff@aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM > *To:* lml@lancaironline.net > *Subject:* [LML] Re: stalls**** > > **** > > Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series aircraft due the > number of fatal accidents associated with stall training and testing in a > IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight instructors.**** > > **** > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPad**** > > > On Jan 2, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Bill Bradburry" > wrote:**** > > Because nobody wants to die alone??**** > > **** > > If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you > probably shouldn=92t be flying it solo.**** > > **** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Colyn Case > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM > *To:* lml@lancaironline.net > *Subject:* [LML] Re: stalls**** > > **** > > aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. > One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in favo= r > of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out = in > their Lancair's solo and doing it....**** > > **** > > On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:**** > > **** > > Why not?**** > > If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to > recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane doe= s > when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In > flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in > front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw u= p > but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stal= ls > differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what > the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice = it > begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what I need to do (lower th= e > stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a good instructor and go t= o > 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your life stalling your airplane > and getting to know her. It's **** > > Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....**** > > Sorry about that but**** > > My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes > always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, > learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots an= d > come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, > Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.**** > > My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. > > Sent from my iPad**** > > > On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" > wrote:**** > > I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether > in my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, = I > just don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground effe= ct > for the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; o= n > landing, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let t= he > speed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold. During normal fligh= t, > I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed. Too many variables in= a > home built airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is > PROBABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the > gauge is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention aft= er > heavy rain).**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Ed Gray > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM > *To:* lml@lancaironline.net > *Subject:* [LML] stalls**** > > Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying lo= w > under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot**** > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 > Internal Virus Database is out of date.**** > > **** > > --e89a8f3b9dad12755304d26a9cf1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If the nose does not drop crisply upon stall, then i'd be concerne= d about CG. perhaps its load is too far aft, or if this happens on minimum = weight and fuel, perhaps need to move battery forward or to firewall. In an= y case, keep the damn ball in the middle. One caution about cg too far forw= ard is loss of speed at cruise. .

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:08 PM, DW <dwills@glb= elt.com> wrote:

Jeff, I wonder if ther= e is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the recovery difficulty, suc= h as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown many hours in an Extra 300 an= d that big rudder responds well. I think that anyone flying a high performa= nce experimental=A0 should have some basic aerobatic stall and spin trainin= g in an aircraft designed for and with a good instructor, after all you can= stall in almost any configuration unintentionally and should know how to r= ecover. An example can be a sudden wind shift or gust. Another=A0 example c= ould be on climb out, =A0with power you have right rudder in to keep the ba= ll centered, a sudden strong wind gust from the rear creates a shear that s= talls a wing or both, the nose now drops and if power is not reduced if nee= ded, =A0and or the rudder inputs are not =A0changed if needed for the new a= ttitude keeping the ball centered, things could get ugly. Keeping the ball = centered is very important, even a little off in the wrong configuration ca= n get you into trouble =93step on the ball=94 is what I learned from the st= art. These are relatively light aircraft and they are in the experimental c= ategory for a reason. Would it be possible as a group that we can collectiv= ely come up with a list of the =A0performance habits of these aircraft from= those of actual experience for others to review the flight characteristic= =92s and compare notes?

=A0

=A0

Dwills

360 Builder =

=A0

From: Lancair Mailing List= [mailto:lml@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Edwards
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.netSubject: [LML] Re: stalls

=A0

No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the a= ppropriate training, fly responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the = stall characteristics including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. = Remember, loss of control accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents. = Just practicing stalls in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise IMH= O. Many pilots need a thorough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want a = good course of instruction on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery co= urse.

=A0

Best regards,

=A0

Jeff


On Jan 3, 2013, at = 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Then you are saying that those IV ai= rcraft are death traps and should be destroyed before they kill the people = in them.=A0 It seems that Lancair has a problem on their hands with a very = bad design.

=A0

From: Lancair Mailing List= [mailto:lml@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
= Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

=A0

Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series = aircraft due the number of fatal accidents associated with stall training a= nd testing in a IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight ins= tructors.

=A0

Jeff

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at = 5:16 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Because nobody wants to die alone??<= /span>

=A0

If you are not competent to practice= stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=92t be flying it solo.

=A0

=A0

From: Lancair Mailing List= [mailto:lml@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.netSubject: [LML] Re: stalls

=A0

aerodynamically, I don't know what =A0a Lancair = has in common with a Zlin. =A0 =A0One thing it doesn't have is excess c= ontrol authority. =A0 I'm all in favor of stall recognition training bu= t I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo an= d doing it....

=A0

On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:

=A0

Why not?

If you never stall the airplane when it happens you = won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning wha= t your airplane does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to = safe flight. In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low al= titude and in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when= you screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every a= irplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. l= earning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 = is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what I need to = do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a good instruc= tor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your life stalling yo= ur airplane and getting to know her. It's=A0

Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is= happy.....

Sorry about that but

My old savvy instructor when checking me out in sing= le seat airplanes always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall= the airplane, learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add= 10 =A0knots and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely i= e yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.

My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.
<= br>Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at = 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> wrote:<= /p>

I have made the decision prior to pu= rchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.=A0 After reading the stall a= nd stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth t= he risk.=A0 On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it tak= es to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well a= bove stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a fe= w feet above the threshold.=A0 During normal flight, I don't even get n= ear a typical slow flight speed.=A0 Too many variables in a home built airp= lane with no precise envelope,=A0a header tank that is PROBABLY where I thi= nk it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possib= le extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain).

=A0

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Gra= y
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= b>Subject: [LML] stalls

Colyn, As I said, AVO= ID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.=A0 If you are flying low under the hood, I h= ope you have a well qualified =A0safety pilot

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Vir= us Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12
Internal Virus Database = is out of date.

=A0


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