X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 18:03:26 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5994132 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:39:07 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.163; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.13]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 772513800006B for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mnd002b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mnd002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.107.5]) by mtaomg-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 40173E000081 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:38:32 -0500 (EST) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CFB81A3192164F_28EC_76421_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37276-STANDARD Received: from 12.110.229.82 by webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com (64.12.225.53) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:38:32 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CFB81A318890C7-28EC-2EC50@webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [12.110.229.82] X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:38:32 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:488006464:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290d50e608686574 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CFB81A3192164F_28EC_76421_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It would open the audience's eyes wide to see what aircraft manufacturers d= o to tame stall characteristics. Fred covered some excellent points. BTW Le= n Fox jumped out of the Columbia because the spin chute did not release aft= er he deployed it to recover from the spin. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: DW To: lml Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm Subject: [LML] Re: stalls Jeff, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the re= covery difficulty, such as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown many ho= urs in an Extra 300 and that big rudder responds well. I think that anyone = flying a high performance experimental should have some basic aerobatic st= all and spin training in an aircraft designed for and with a good instructo= r, after all you can stall in almost any configuration unintentionally and = should know how to recover. An example can be a sudden wind shift or gust. = Another example could be on climb out, with power you have right rudder i= n to keep the ball centered, a sudden strong wind gust from the rear create= s a shear that stalls a wing or both, the nose now drops and if power is no= t reduced if needed, and or the rudder inputs are not changed if needed f= or the new attitude keeping the ball centered, things could get ugly. Keepi= ng the ball centered is very important, even a little off in the wrong conf= iguration can get you into trouble =E2=80=9Cstep on the ball=E2=80=9D is wh= at I learned from the start. These are relatively light aircraft and they a= re in the experimental category for a reason. Would it be possible as a gro= up that we can collectively come up with a list of the performance habits = of these aircraft from those of actual experience for others to review the = flight characteristic=E2=80=99s and compare notes?=20 =20 =20 Dwills 360 Builder=20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff= Edwards Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the appropriate training, fl= y responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the stall characteristics i= ncluding installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. Remember, loss of contr= ol accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents. Just practicing stalls = in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise IMHO. Many pilots need a t= horough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want a good course of instruct= ion on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery course. =20 Best regards, =20 Jeff On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" wro= te: Then you are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be de= stroyed before they kill the people in them. It seems that Lancair has a p= roblem on their hands with a very bad design. =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtai= ljeff@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series aircraft due the number= of fatal accidents associated with stall training and testing in a IV seri= es, including a number of test pilots and flight instructors. =20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Bill Bradburry" wro= te: Because nobody wants to die alone?? =20 If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you proba= bly shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo. =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Coly= n Case Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in favor = of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in= their Lancair's solo and doing it.... =20 On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: =20 Why not? If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recogn= ize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when i= t stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro= we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungr= ateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give= you good tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently,= right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane d= oes pre stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buc= kle and bitch at me and tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before= it kills me. I advise you to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet a= nd spend the best 2 hrs of your life stalling your airplane and getting to = know her. It's=20 Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... Sorry about that but My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes alway= s told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn wh= en it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots and come and= land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLI= N, chipmunk etc. My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" wro= te: I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in = my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I jus= t don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground effect fo= r the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on la= nding, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the s= peed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold. During normal flight, = I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed. Too many variables in a= home built airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBAB= LY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is= stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy r= ain). =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed G= ray Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] stalls Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying low = under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date. =20 =20 ----------MB_8CFB81A3192164F_28EC_76421_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" It would open the audience's eyes wide to see what aircraft manufact= urers do to tame stall characteristics. Fred covered some excellent points. BT= W Len Fox jumped out of the Columbia because the spin chute did not release= after he deployed it to recover from the spin.

Jeff


Jeff, I wonder if th= ere is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the recovery difficulty, s= uch as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown many hours in an Extra 300 = and that big rudder responds well. I think that anyone flying a high perfor= mance experimental  should have some basic aerobatic stall and spin tr= aining in an aircraft designed for and with a good instructor, after all yo= u can stall in almost any configuration unintentionally and should know how= to recover. An example can be a sudden wind shift or gust. Another  e= xample could be on climb out,  with power you have right rudder in to = keep the ball centered, a sudden strong wind gust from the rear creates a s= hear that stalls a wing or both, the nose now drops and if power is not red= uced if needed,  and or the rudder inputs are not  changed if nee= ded for the new attitude keeping the ball centered, things could get ugly. = Keeping the ball centered is very important, even a little off in the wrong= configuration can get you into trouble =E2=80=9Cstep on the ball=E2=80=9D = is what I learned from the start. These are relatively light aircraft and t= hey are in the experimental category for a reason. Would it be possible as = a group that we can collectively come up with a list of the  performan= ce habits of these aircraft from those of actual experience for others to r= eview the flight characteristic=E2=80=99s and compare notes?
 
 
Dwills
360 Builder <= /div>
 
F= rom: Lancair Maili= ng List [mailto:lml@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf Of Jeff Edwards
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the= appropriate training, fly responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame th= e stall characteristics including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors= . Remember, loss of control accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents= . Just practicing stalls in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise I= MHO. Many pilots need a thorough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want = a good course of instruction on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery cour= se.
 
Best regards,
 
Jeff
Then= you are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be destro= yed before they kill the people in them.  It seems that Lancair has a = problem on their hands with a very bad design.
&nbs= p;
F= rom: Lancair Maili= ng List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff= @aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV serie= s aircraft due the number of fatal accidents associated with stall training= and testing in a IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight i= nstructors.
 
Jeff

Sent from my iPad
Beca= use nobody wants to die alone??
&nbs= p;
If y= ou are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably = shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo.
&nbs= p;
&nbs= p;
F= rom: Lancair Maili= ng List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair= has in common with a Zlin.    One thing it doesn't have is exces= s control authority.   I'm all in favor of stall recognition training = but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doin= g it....
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
 
Why not?
If you never stall the airplane when it happens yo= u won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what = your airplane does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to sa= fe flight. In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low alti= tude and in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when y= ou screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every air= plane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. lea= rning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is= so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what I need to do= (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a good instructo= r and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your life stalling your= airplane and getting to know her. It's 
Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she = is happy.....
Sorry about that but
My old savvy instructor when checking me out in si= ngle seat airplanes always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, sta= ll the airplane, learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, a= dd 10  knots and come and land, it has never failed to get me down saf= ely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.
My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.
Sent from my iPad
I ha= ve made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 3= 60.  After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I ju= st don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground eff= ect for the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up;= on landing, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let= the speed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold.  During norm= al flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too man= y variables in a home built airplane with no precise envelope, a heade= r tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 p= ounds if the gauge is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water re= tention after heavy rain).
&nbs= p;
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] stalls
Colyn, As I said,= AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low under the ho= od, I hope you have a well qualified  safety pilot
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.= com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
&nbs= p;
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