X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 11:30:31 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5993272 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:59:54 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.67; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=iXN3ZxKpgFB72MmjRQ4+ehw5wuqFAHJY8HnjsM/WHo2sOXQUJBAOFxcgCISyWgFX; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [70.105.250.129] (helo=[192.168.1.34]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TqnCR-0004N8-33 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:59:19 -0500 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-215-964436835 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:59:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <99629159-C8C7-4ADD-B263-D08E6B21586B@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940f427cd9250147430d7121fdbd31cf0fe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 70.105.250.129 --Apple-Mail-215-964436835 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Bill,=20 No you didn't get it. You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range = of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of = CG's, wing incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec. It = is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of = pilots and aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse = per operational hour than airline operation. Notably solo pilots with = limited make/model experience fare much worse. Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my = stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of = the airplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block = raked off the primer from my leading edge to fix it. Similarly, when = Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out = because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to = the same specs) did. That's how little a change affects flight = behavior. =20 You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to = execute and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly. However, = unless you can accurately predict that every pilot on this list = operating with whatever aircraft, however configured, with no prior = experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the first time performing = this maneuver alone, then I would recommend against provoking all of = them to do so. Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows = up is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot = better than those that don't. That is why I take issue with = recommendations to experiment on your own. By all means, be familiar = with your airplane, but give us a hand with the safety situation and get = trained in this make/model. Colyn =20 On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: No, I got it. I just don=92t get all this talk about Lancairs being = deadly in a stall. It seems you are trying to scare Lancair drivers = into foregoing stall training. That, in my opinion, will kill more = people than learning to fly their planes. I understand the reason for = no spins and if you know how to recover your plane from an incipient = stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a spin. But flying a plane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is = just plane dumb! =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:33 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 I guess you didn't get my point... =20 On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Because nobody wants to die alone?? =20 If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you = probably shouldn=92t be flying it solo. =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in = favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone = going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it.... =20 On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: =20 Why not? If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to = recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane = does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. = In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and = in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you = screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every = airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking = etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My = ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what = I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a = good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your = life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's=20 Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... Sorry about that but My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes = always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, = learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots = and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, = Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc. My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" = wrote: > I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls = altogether in my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident = information, I just don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I = stay in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the = green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my = flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above = the threshold. During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical = slow flight speed. Too many variables in a home built airplane with no = precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is, = but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Ed Gray > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] stalls >=20 > Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying = low under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: = 12/23/12 > Internal Virus Database is out of date. >=20 =20 =20 --Apple-Mail-215-964436835 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

No, I got it.  I just don=92t = get all this talk about Lancairs being deadly in a stall.  It seems you = are trying to scare Lancair drivers into foregoing stall training.  = That, in my opinion, will kill more people than learning to fly their = planes.  I understand the reason for no spins and if you know how to recover your plane from = an incipient stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a = spin.

But flying a plane that you are = afraid to, and have never, stalled is just plane = dumb!

 

From: Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January = 03, 2013 8:33 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls

 

I guess you didn't get my point...

 

On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote:



Because nobody wants to die = alone??

 

If you are not competent to = practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=92t be flying it = solo.

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January = 02, 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls

 

aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a Zlin.   =  One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm all in = favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in = their Lancair's solo and doing = it....

 

On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz = wrote:

 

Why not?

If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to = recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it = stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we = stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful = critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you good = tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, = left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the = most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and = tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you = to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your = life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. = It's 

Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is = happy.....

Sorry about that but

My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes = always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when = it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come and = land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk = etc.

My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> = wrote:

I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.  After reading the = stall and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it = takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well = above stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few = feet above the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built = airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I = think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy = rain).

 

From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January = 01, 2013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] = stalls

Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low = under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety = pilot

No virus found in this = message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: = 12/23/12
Internal Virus Database is out of = date.

 

 


= --Apple-Mail-215-964436835--