X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:40:50 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-da01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.143] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0) with ESMTP id 5972773 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:17:57 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.143; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.65]) by imr-da01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id DAC4A1C00011A for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.54.254.155] (mobile-166-137-150-198.mycingular.net [166.137.150.198]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id E2906E00008F; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:17:20 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E9F630E7-9774-4AAD-A60F-51E051022B59 X-Original-Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Seat Belt update Legacy X-Original-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:17:02 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:477151424:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294150ddf03f1f45 X-AOL-IP: 166.137.150.198 --Apple-Mail-E9F630E7-9774-4AAD-A60F-51E051022B59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Unknown...it is not tracked by NTSB or FAA. Sent from my iPad On Dec 28, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Colyn Case wrote: > Jeff, >=20 > What's the record for occupants submarine-ing with a 3-point airbag belt? > Just curious. >=20 > Colyn >=20 > On Dec 28, 2012, at 7:37 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >=20 > I would strongly recommend airbag seatbelts. >=20 > Jeff >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller wrote: >=20 >> Agreed. The Simpson instructions show the geometry for restraint placeme= nt. The Legacy is for me because the straps are slightly above shoulder hei= ght. Other aircraft here have placed a spacer above the backrest to provide= that level of protection. The primary point was those 3-4 foot straps exte= nding back into the fuselage have a 15% extension at impact. That puts a p= erson's head close to the panel in some cases. >> On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: >>=20 >>> Gents, >>> =20 >>> The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's shoulders= as this could cause a compression of the spine in an accident. >>> =20 >>> Grayhawk >>> =20 >>> In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, sdfiel= ds68@att.net writes: >>> Hello Paul, >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. I a= m planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've already do= ne. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Stan Fields >>>=20 >>> L2KR/G # 201 >>>=20 >>> Austin >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of P= aul Miller >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 PM >>> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>> Subject: [LML] Seat Belt update Legacy >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I made a safety and comfort upgrade with my Legacy recently and installe= d 6-point Simpson belts. Here are the details and a few things to consider b= ased on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of Simpson who supplied the n= ew belts: >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> 1) I removed the inertial reels based on Butch's recommendation because r= eels are not reliable in high-G impacts. I also shortened the shoulder str= aps and bolted them behind the seats. Belts stretch 15% in an accident so i= f you want maximum protection from panel impact, remove the long straps from= the roof and shorten them as much as possible. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> 2) These Simpson belts and hardware are rated to 14,000 pounds. Testin= g shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make that figure. Butch's Cit= abria belts only tested to 1800lb before failure. Original hardware on our= TBM 700s failed at 600lb before we complained and an AD came out on the Fre= nch hardware. Butch's tests on Hooker failed at less than 3,000lb. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> 3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two years from sunlight exposure.= >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> 4) High G pullups and crashes without the 6-points (crotch straps) often= find the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals because they slide unde= rneath the lap belts. You must have the 6 points to avoid this problem. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I installed the crotch straps to the same mounting point with the lap be= lts. I don't believe the mounting location of the lap belt on the center co= nsole will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the Legacy so I will have to re= view that at a later date. I believe the hard point on the seat back and th= e fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking maybe of bonding an attach poi= nt to the rear spar but I have no data yet on how that might work for the cr= otch straps. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> The incremental cost was low for me. I sold the old hardware, TSO'd bel= ts and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot. This setup from Simpson is= available for $299 which is inexpensive for the high quality and ability to= handle higher loads and shocks. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =46rom a comfort perspective, many of my flights are cross country and t= he inertial reels always had me bouncing around the cockpit going through Mo= ntana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer. With these hard point= s, I cinch down and become one with the airplane. Control is better in turb= ulence and I feel liked I'm locked in a little tighter. The setup is comfor= table during long flights. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Contact me if you'd like more info on how I attached these shoulder stra= ps or if you have data on mounting the other points. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Paul >>>=20 >>> Spruce Creek >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-E9F630E7-9774-4AAD-A60F-51E051022B59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Unknown...it is not tracke= d by NTSB or FAA.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 28, 2012, at= 12:07 PM, Colyn Case <colynca= se@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jeff,

What's the record for occupants submarin= e-ing with a 3-point airbag belt?
Just curious.

Colyn

On Dec 28, 2012, at 7:37 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

I would strongly reco= mmend airbag seatbelts.

Jeff

Sent from my iP= ad

On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller <pjdmiller@gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed.  The Simpson instruction= s show the geometry for restraint placement.  The Legacy is for me beca= use the straps are slightly above shoulder height.  Other aircraft here= have placed a spacer above the backrest to provide that level of protection= .  The primary point was those 3-4 foot straps extending back into the f= uselage have a 15% extension at impact.   That puts a person's head clo= se to the panel in some cases.
On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

Gents,
 
The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's=20 shoulders as this could cause a compression of the spine in an accident.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 sdfields68@att.net writes:

Hello=20 Paul,

 

I=20 would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. I am=20= planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've already=20= done.

 

Stan=20 Fields

L2KR/G=20 # 201

Austin

 

From:= Lancair Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Paul=20 Miller
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 PM
To:=20= lml@lancaironline.net
S= ubject: [LML] Seat Belt update=20 Legacy

 =

I made a safety and comfort upgrade with my= Legacy recently=20 and installed 6-point Simpson belts.  Here are the details and a few=20= things to consider based on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of Simp= son=20 who supplied the new belts:

 

1) I removed the inertial reels based on Butch= 's=20 recommendation because reels are not reliable in high-G impacts.   I a= lso=20 shortened the shoulder straps and bolted them behind the seats.   Bel= ts=20 stretch 15% in an accident so if you want maximum protection from panel=20= impact, remove the long straps from the roof and shorten them as much as=20= possible.

 

2) These Simpson belts and hardware are rated t= o 14,000=20 pounds.   Testing shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make tha= t=20 figure.   Butch's Citabria belts only tested to 1800lb before failure= .=20   Original hardware on our TBM 700s failed at 600lb before we complai= ned=20 and an AD came out on the French hardware.  Butch's tests on Hooker=20= failed at less than 3,000lb.

 

3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two yea= rs from=20 sunlight exposure.

 

4) High G pullups and crashes without the 6-po= ints (crotch=20 straps) often find the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals because t= hey=20 slide underneath the lap belts.  You must have the 6 points to avoid t= his=20 problem.

 

I installed the crotch straps to the same moun= ting point=20 with the lap belts.  I don't believe the mounting location of the lap= =20 belt on the center console will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the Lega= cy=20 so I will have to review that at a later date.  I believe the hard po= int=20 on the seat back and the fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking maybe= of=20 bonding an attach point to the rear spar but I have no data yet on how tha= t=20 might work for the crotch straps.

 

The incremental cost was low for me.  I s= old the old=20 hardware, TSO'd belts and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot.  = This=20 setup from Simpson is available for $299 which is inexpensive for the high= =20 quality and ability to handle higher loads and shocks.

 

=46rom a comfort perspective, many of my fligh= ts are cross=20 country and the inertial reels always had me bouncing around the cockpit g= oing=20 through Montana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer.  With= =20 these hard points, I cinch down and become one with the airplane.=20  Control is better in turbulence and I feel liked I'm locked in a lit= tle=20 tighter.  The setup is comfortable during long=20 flights.

 

Contact me if you'd like more info on how I at= tached these=20 shoulder straps or if you have data on mounting the other=20 points.

 

Paul

Spruce Creek

 

 

<= /div>

= --Apple-Mail-E9F630E7-9774-4AAD-A60F-51E051022B59--