X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:13:52 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-da04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.146] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTP id 5637203 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:07:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.146; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.200]) by imr-da04.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q63M6so2031047 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:06:54 -0400 Received: from core-mte004a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mte004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.236.77]) by mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 6C639E000085 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:06:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LNC2 firewall X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f7e1.653bd2c0.3d24c6fd_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:410636640:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c84ff36cfe2e7c --part1_f7e1.653bd2c0.3d24c6fd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terrence, There should be a SS doghouse around the firewall opening and, when the gear is retracted, a small door on the leg or other seal that keeps the nose wheel well closed off from the engine compartment. Of course, if the nose wheel door doesn't seal completely, there is the possibility of getting engine compartment flames into the well that way. If I were to land with an engine fire (unable to turn off the fuel or the oil was still burning), I would do it gear up. "Why?" You might ask. Well, extending the gear provides more air for any fire in the cockpit, exposes the nose wheel well to engine compartment flames and, most importantly, belly landings come to a stop more quickly (believe me, I know) without any danger of catching the nose gear and flipping or worrying about crosswinds, braking surface, etc. Since there is no control on a gear up, the pilot could be opening the canopy, un-belting, climbing out on the wing and all during the slide.................... Scott Krueger In a message dated 7/3/2012 12:17:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, troneill@charter.net writes: Any comments on sealing the big hole in the 235 etc. firewall for the nosegear, when extended or retracted? Terrence On Jul 2, 2012, at 8:32 PM, _Sky2high@aol.com_ (mailto:Sky2high@aol.com) wrote: Colyn, Note that 300 series Lancairs use aircraft plywood for the core of the firewall, one layer of glass on each side and many layers of glass in the engine mount and support gusset areas. That glass has not been cured in an oven and will soften at a temperature well below 280F. The wood remains rigid until it chars. Turbines aside, Engine compartment fires may be oil or gas or, possibly both after a while. Oil from a significant "leak" will be blown overboard rather quickly until the engine seizes. Fuel can be shut off from reaching the engine compartment, thus one would want easy access to the shutoff valve leading to the engine compartment (unfortunately, the 200/300 series puts the header tank shutoff deep into the passenger foot well). A high speed dive has the possibility to snuff the fire by screwing up the A/F ratio. All flexible fluid lines in the engine compartment should be the best (like auto racers, I believe that only steel-ended fire-sleeved teflon-SS covered lines meet that requirement). Engine fuel fittings should be steel. It is common aviation practice to use aluminum fittings for oil since they are beefier when larger than the -4 size. Now, all that is left to worry about is that maintenance assembly problem where a connection was left finger-tightened or a small exhaust leak that becomes focused on some flammable fluid carrying part. Crashes with the engine running are a different problem. Cockpit fires are a different problem (open air vents and extending the gear may allow more air to enter the cockpit and feed the fire). Finally, Lancairs without cabin pressurization will have the cockpit pressure less than the engine compartment pressure whilst joyfully operating at high speed and at any elevation. There must be NO firewall openings that would allow passage of any engine compartment gasses into the human occupied cockpit, thus eliminating flames or flame by-products (like CO) to pass. Review the security of the heating system for the same reason. Uh, in case of fire you may want to shut down air vents where the intakes are located just aft of the cowling. Just saying. Scott Krueger PS No, I don't wear a smoke hood or a nomex fire suit. No stinking parachute either. Risk is manageable. The perfect outcome may not always be economically possible (think of Fed death panels). In a message dated 7/1/2012 8:04:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _colyncase@earthlink.net_ (mailto:colyncase@earthlink.net) writes: The data on the blanket may be available from HI-Temp INsulation Company in Camarillo, CA. ...and it may be available from Lancair. I remember that: - it passed a 2000 dF/15 minute burner test to establish compliance with AC 20-135 - backside temp after 4 minutes was over 300 dF - backside temp after 9 minutes was over 500 dF and slowly rising after that. I would be interested in any data on the SS/Fiberfrax approach. Things that concern me about the LIV-P firewall: - I'm told that pre-preg loses structural integrity around 280 dF. That would give you 3 minutes to get it on the ground by above numbers. - The engine mount will conduct heat directly into the firewall - The cabin air valve includes plastic components - The rubber grommet approach for through holes I'm told will convey smoke into the cockpit. - At 3000 fpm it takes 8 minutes to get down from FL240 It seems to me SS might to some degree mitigate the above issues. If I had it to do over again maybe: - Blanket over SS - Fully SS air valve - Improved through holes with connectors fastened to the SS - What does FiberFrax do? In the meantime I have temp sensors around the engine compartment and a Halon canister in the back plumbed to the engine compartment. (To be used after fuel shutoff, prop stopped-to stop pumping oil, electrical off, airspeed reduced - to reduce Halon dilution) It is true that vigilant maintenance is the most effective strategy. On the other hand it got my attention when my "brand new" exhaust system leaked enough to burn through a blanket near the gascolator. (exhaust system since replaced). On Jun 29, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Steve Colwell wrote: Is there someone out there that would like to make a comparison (cost, utility, performance et al) between the blanket and the stainless/fiberfrax installation? Jim I was stressing out over the best possible fire protection by looking at fire resistant: Paint, Firewall Penetrations, Sealants, etc.. My conclusion was to do the best job I could on fire prevention (fuel lines, anti-chafe, heat shielding, exhaust pipes, fire sleeves) and have a procedure for getting it on the ground as quickly as possible with fuel and ignition off. Why? A local Aerobatic Performer flying a Harmon Rocket had a FWF fire in the pattern. He got it on the runway asap, but not before a hole was burned in the belly. He died of smoke inhalation. The odds are not good on a in-flight FWF fire, has anyone heard of a successful conclusion? Steve Colwell Legacy = --part1_f7e1.653bd2c0.3d24c6fd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Terrence,
 
There should be a SS doghouse around the firewall opening and, when th= e=20 gear is retracted, a small door on the leg or other seal that keeps th= e=20 nose wheel well closed off from the engine compartment.  Of course, if= the=20 nose wheel door doesn't seal completely, there is the possibility of gettin= g=20 engine compartment flames into the well that way.
 
If I were to land with an engine fire (unable to turn off the fuel or = the=20 oil was still burning), I would do it gear up.  "Why?" You m= ight=20 ask.  Well, extending the gear provides more air for any fire in = the=20 cockpit, exposes the nose wheel well to engine compartment flames and,= most=20 importantly, belly landings come to a stop more quickly (believe me, I know= )=20 without any danger of catching the nose gear and flipping or worrying about= =20 crosswinds, braking surface, etc.  Since there is no control on a= gear=20 up, the pilot could be opening the canopy, un-belting, climbing out on the = wing=20 and all during the slide.................... 
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 7/3/2012 12:17:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 troneill@charter.net writes:
= Any=20 comments on sealing the big hole in the 235 etc. firewall for the nosegea= r,=20 when extended or retracted?=20

Terrence

On Jul 2, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:
<= FONT=20 color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Colyn,
 
Note that 300 series Lancairs use aircraft plywood for the core of= =20 the firewall, one layer of glass on each side and many layers of g= lass=20 in the engine mount and support gusset areas.  That glass has= not=20 been cured in an oven and will soften at a temperature well below= =20 280F.  The wood remains rigid until it chars.
 
Turbines aside, Engine compartment fires may be oil or gas or, pos= sibly=20 both after a while.  Oil from a significant "leak" will be blown= =20 overboard rather quickly until the engine seizes.  Fuel can be shu= t off=20 from reaching the engine compartment, thus one would want easy access t= o the=20 shutoff valve leading to the engine compartment (unfortunately, the 200= /300=20 series puts the header tank shutoff deep into the passenger foot= =20 well).  A high speed dive has the possibility to snuff the fire by= =20 screwing up the A/F ratio.
 
All flexible fluid lines in the engine compartment should be the b= est=20 (like auto racers, I believe that only steel-ended fire-sleeved=20 teflon-SS covered lines meet that requirement).
 
Engine fuel fittings should be steel.
 
It is common aviation practice to use aluminum fittings for o= il=20 since they are beefier when larger than the -4 size.
 
Now, all that is left to worry about is that maintenance asse= mbly=20 problem where a connection was left finger-tightened or a small ex= haust=20 leak that becomes focused on some flammable fluid carrying part.
 
Crashes with the engine running are a different problem.
 
Cockpit fires are a different problem (open air vents and extendin= g the=20 gear may allow more air to enter the cockpit and feed the fire).
 
Finally, Lancairs without cabin pressurization will have the cockp= it=20 pressure less than the engine compartment pressure whilst joyfully oper= ating=20 at high speed and at any elevation.  There must be NO firewall ope= nings=20 that would allow passage of any engine compartment gasses into the huma= n=20 occupied cockpit, thus eliminating flames or flame by-products (li= ke=20 CO) to pass.  Review the security of the heating system for the sa= me=20 reason.
 
Uh, in case of fire you may want to shut down air vents where the= =20 intakes are located just aft of the cowling.  Just saying.
 
Scott Krueger
 
PS No, I don't wear a smoke hood or a nomex fire suit. N= o=20 stinking parachute either.  Risk is manageable. The perfect outcom= e may=20 not always be economically possible (think of Fed death panels).
 
In a message dated 7/1/2012 8:04:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, colyncase@earthlink.net=20 writes:
The=20 data on the blanket may be available from HI-Temp INsulation Company = in=20 Camarillo, CA.=20
...and it may be available from Lancair.

I remember that:
- it passed a 2000 dF/15 minute burner test to establish complia= nce=20 with AC 20-135
- backside temp after 4 minutes was over 300 dF
- backside temp after 9 minutes was over 500 dF and slowly risin= g=20 after that.

I would be interested in any data on the SS/Fiberfrax approach.<= /DIV>

Things that concern me about the LIV-P firewall:
- I'm told that pre-preg loses structural integrity around 280 d= F.=20   That would give you 3 minutes to get it on the ground by above= =20 numbers.
- The engine mount will conduct heat directly into the firewall<= /DIV>
- The cabin air valve includes plastic components
- The rubber grommet approach for through holes I'm told will co= nvey=20 smoke into the cockpit.
- At 3000 fpm it takes 8 minutes to get down from FL240

It seems to me SS might to some degree mitigate the above issues= . If=20 I had it to do over again maybe:
- Blanket over SS
- Fully SS air valve
- Improved through holes with connectors fastened to the SS
- What does FiberFrax do?

In the meantime I have temp sensors around the engine compartmen= t and=20 a Halon canister in the back plumbed to the engine compartment. (To b= e=20 used after fuel shutoff, prop stopped-to stop pumping oil, electrical= off,=20 airspeed reduced - to reduce Halon dilution)

It is true that vigilant maintenance is the most effective strat= egy.=20   On the other hand it got my attention when my "brand new" exha= ust=20 system leaked enough to burn through a blanket near the gascolator.= =20 (exhaust system since replaced).


On Jun 29, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Steve Colwell wrote:
Is there some= one out=20 there that would like to make a comparison (cost, utility, performanc= e et=20 al) between the blanket and the stainless/fiberfrax=20 installation?
Jim
 
I=20 was stressing out over the best possible fire protection by looking a= t=20 fire resistant: Paint, Firewall Penetrations, Sealants, etc..  M= y=20 conclusion was to do the best job I could on fire prevention (fuel li= nes,=20 anti-chafe, heat shielding, exhaust pipes, fire sleeves) and have a= =20 procedure for getting it on the ground as quickly as possible with fu= el=20 and ignition off.
Why? =20 A local Aerobatic Performer flying a Harmon Rocket had a FWF fire in = the=20 pattern.  He got it on the runway asap, but not before a hole wa= s=20 burned in the belly.  He died of smoke inhalation.  The odd= s are=20 not good on a in-flight FWF fire, has anyone heard of a successful=20 conclusion? 
 
Steve=20 Colwell  Legacy
 =

=3D
=

<= /FONT> --part1_f7e1.653bd2c0.3d24c6fd_boundary--