X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 03:58:38 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTPS id 5635887 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 03 Jul 2012 03:10:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.52; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by pbbro8 with SMTP id ro8so8659066pbb.25 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2012 00:09:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.232.232 with SMTP id tr8mr4640758pbc.73.1341299363847; Tue, 03 Jul 2012 00:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.42.9 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:09:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:09:23 -0600 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking From: William Wilson X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33cf6c1e9bee04c3e798dc --047d7b33cf6c1e9bee04c3e798dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The airspace in Seattle isn't really more complex than any other large city, certainly less complex than southern California, Florida, DC, or New York, perhaps about the same as Las Vegas. Once you exit Class B airspace VFR, your clearance is gone. They do not need to tell you anything. VFR, the easiest way in is from the south or north. Go under the Class B and stay there. From the south, plainly visible railroad tracks will lead you directly to the airport and provide a reference to keep you out of the Renton airspace to the southeast and the ground-level Class B further south. From the north, come in over Lake Washington and it works like any other VFR arrival under a Class B. From the west, the only problem is there is not a lot of space between the hills of West Seattle and the class B shelf above, but there is no real hazard there. You won't know any of the landmarks, but it is no big deal if you tell them that. Just don't get confused and fly to SeaTac instead :) Seattle is the prettiest city in the US, IMO, and the arrival from the north is great. Boeing controllers do sometimes ask you to try to repeat the latest Blue Angels demonstration flight, but if you just go where they say they will get you on the ground very efficiently. And it isn't always crowded. The weather in Seattle makes IFR always a good option, and then you don't have to worry about airspace, but if the weather is VMC you will still have to contend with all the traffic. Ground transportation in Seattle is generally an awkward affair, but from Boeing there is bus and taxi service that will get you efficiently to UW (as efficient as possible in Seattle, anyway). Everett is "out of the city," so no one will take you there or pick you up, not even cab drivers, so you have to rent a car. People in Seattle act like anything outside the city limits is on the other end of the Oregon Trail, and given the traffic situation, this attitude is understandable. On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:35 PM, wrote: > I agree, Carl. > IFR, good planning, and experience with the locals, solves most of these > issues. On several of these flights the airplane was restricted to VFR, > including an Eclipse Jet. VFR procedures can became much more complex, > than IFR. > > Thanks > > --- On *Mon, 7/2/12, Carl Cadwell * wrote: > > > From: Carl Cadwell > Subject: RE: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and > parking > To: cwfmd@yahoo.com, lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 9:45 AM > > > I understand what Bill is saying although have never experienced this > situation. I fly frequently to the Seattle area. Paine Field in Everett > is 10 miles further to the U of Washington than is Boeing Field. 10 mile= s > in Seattle traffic can be an easy 10 minutes or a hard hour longer. I wi= ll > fly to Boeing Field every time and have never had any trouble in the IVP = or > the Epic LT. Park at Aeroflight to avoid the $50 ramp fee at Galvin ($0 = at > Aeroflight). I always go in IFR and there is no hassle and no changing > runways at the last moment. Even the shorter parallel runway at Boeing i= s > 3700=92. > > > > ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and step climb you coming out of > Boeing to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart at rush hour. It is never > long enough to have any trouble reaching cruise altitude before the Casca= de > mountain range to the East. If there is a concern about icing in the > climb, you can request an uninterrupted climb to cruise in your remarks > section of the flight plan. This has worked the few times I have requeste= d > this safety consideration. Another option is to request a climb to the > west to cruise altitude and then a turn to the East. I have never had to > do this and never wished that I had done it. > > > > In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to cross the Cascades to my home > base in Eastern Washington. This is usually above the icing over the > Cascade Mountains which is usually around FL 080 to FL 120. > > > > IF you are arriving into the Seattle area from the East and icing is > reported in the decent, you can request a Puget Sound Letdown which will > hold you high until you are clear of the Cascades to the East and then ha= ve > a rapid uninterrupted descent to the warm air below. I have done this on= ce > in all the years I have flown to Seattle and put on =BD=94 ice in 2,000= =92 > descending at 2000 fpm and then lost it about 3,000=92 lower about 6,000= =92 > AGL. Had I done the normal Chins Arrival, I would have descended into th= e > icing layer over the Cascade Mountains and expected to hold altitude in t= he > middle of the icing for 10 minutes. This would not have been pretty. I > would have refused the descent and done a 180 if needed before I entered > the reported icing altitude over the Cascades. In my experience ATC is > always very accommodating. > > > > As far as engine failure is concerned, if you are departing to the south, > Renton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles and the I-5 is just off your > left. Departing to the north, keep the engine operational. > > > > Fly Safely and request the safest way. > > > > Carl Cadwell > > > > *From:* cwfmd@yahoo.com [mailto:cwfmd@yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:03 AM > *To:* lml@lancaironline.net > *Subject:* Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and > parking > > > > I recommend Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington as Boeing Field= . > There's lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Everett factory > where they are built. Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO there with rental car= . > > > > I have had bad luck with Boeing Field on several visits. The tower may > try to assign the short 13L runway while you are on short final. This > induced a go around, in the 4P, with high terrain just to the left. On > climb out I had to turn close to 13R for comfortable terrain clearance. > > On another trip I had the strange and unique experience of being cleare= d > into class B, but then "uncleared"(on left downwind for 13) when I crosse= d > an airspace boundary into class D, then immediately back into class B. > (This can happen laterally and vertically on left downwind!) I had to cal= l > approach later on the ground, to hear that this had happened, but I never > could get the guy to explain how the pilot was to know the class B > clearance was canceled by flightpath, without notice by radio. > > Many issues are induced by the simultaneous approaches by airliners into > SeaTac about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle between the rapidly > rising terrain and the often low clouds of the marine layer. On westbound > departures which are away from the higher terrain, tower may assign very > low altitude restrictions over the congested urban city to help avoid > setting off the TCAS go around alarms on the ILS airliners into SeaTac. A= t > least in the 4P, this sets you up with no reasonable place to land and no > altitude buffer in case of single engine failure on takeoff. > > If you decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot the approach to the > long runway. Study the terrain and nuances of the congested Class B > airspace relative to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to Paine:) > > Safe travels > > Bill Miller > > > --047d7b33cf6c1e9bee04c3e798dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The airspace in Seattle isn't really more complex than any other large = city, certainly less complex than southern California, Florida, DC, or New = York, perhaps about the same as Las Vegas.

Once you exit Class B air= space VFR, your clearance is gone.=A0 They do not need to tell you anything= .

VFR, the easiest way in is from the south or north.=A0 Go under the Cla= ss B and stay there.=A0 From the south, plainly visible railroad tracks wil= l lead you directly to the airport and provide a reference to keep you out = of the Renton airspace to the southeast and the ground-level Class B furthe= r south.=A0 From the north, come in over Lake Washington and it works like = any other VFR arrival under a Class B.=A0 From the west, the only problem i= s there is not a lot of space between the hills of West Seattle and the cla= ss B shelf above, but there is no real hazard there.=A0 You won't know = any of the landmarks, but it is no big deal if you tell them that. Just don= 't get confused and fly to SeaTac instead :)=A0 Seattle is the pretties= t city in the US, IMO, and the arrival from the north is great.

Boeing controllers do sometimes ask you to try to repeat the latest Blu= e Angels demonstration flight, but if you just go where they say they will = get you on the ground very efficiently.=A0 And it isn't always crowded.=

The weather in Seattle makes IFR always a good option, and then you don= 't have to worry about airspace, but if the weather is VMC you will sti= ll have to contend with all the traffic.

Ground transportation in Se= attle is generally an awkward affair, but from Boeing there is bus and taxi= service that will get you efficiently to UW (as efficient as possible in S= eattle, anyway).=A0 Everett is "out of the city," so no one will = take you there or pick you up, not even cab drivers, so you have to rent a = car.=A0 People in Seattle act like anything outside the city limits is on t= he other end of the Oregon Trail, and given the traffic situation, this att= itude is understandable.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:35 PM, <cwfmd@yah= oo.com> wrote:
I agree, Carl.
=A0IFR, good planning, and experience with the locals, solves most of = these issues. On several of these flights the airplane was restricted to VF= R, including an Eclipse Jet.=A0 VFR procedures can=A0became much more compl= ex, than IFR.
=A0
Thanks

--- On Mon, 7/2/12, Carl Cadwell <CarlC@cadwell.com>= wrote:

From: Carl Cadwell <CarlC@cadwell.com>
Subject: RE: Paine Fie= ld vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking
To: cwfmd@yahoo.com, lml@lancairon= line.net
Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 9:45 AM
<= br>

I understand what Bill is saying although have never experienced this= situation.=A0 I fly frequently to the Seattle area.=A0 Paine Field in Ever= ett is 10 miles further to the U of Washington than is Boeing Field.=A0 10 = miles in Seattle traffic can be an easy 10 minutes or a hard hour longer.= =A0 I will fly to Boeing Field every time and have never had any trouble in= the IVP or the Epic LT.=A0 Park at Aeroflight to avoid the $50 ramp fee at= Galvin ($0 at Aeroflight).=A0 I always go in IFR and there is no hassle an= d no changing runways at the last moment.=A0 Even the shorter parallel runw= ay at Boeing is 3700=92.=A0

=A0

ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and step climb you coming out o= f Boeing to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart at rush hour.=A0 It is never= long enough to have any trouble reaching cruise altitude before the Cascad= e mountain range to the East.=A0 =A0=A0If there is a concern about icing in= the climb, you can request an uninterrupted climb to cruise in your remark= s section of the flight plan. This has worked the few times I have requeste= d this safety consideration.=A0 Another option is to request a climb to the= west to cruise altitude and then a turn to the East.=A0 I have never had t= o do this and never wished that I had done it.=A0

=A0

In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to cross the Cascades to = my home base in Eastern Washington.=A0 This is usually above the icing over= the Cascade Mountains which is usually around FL 080 to FL 120.

=A0

IF you are arriving into the Seattle area from the East and icing= is reported in the decent, you can request a Puget Sound Letdown which wil= l hold you high until you are clear of the Cascades to the East and then ha= ve a rapid uninterrupted descent to the warm air below.=A0 I have done this= once in all the years I have flown to Seattle and put on =BD=94 ice in 2,0= 00=92 descending at 2000 fpm and then lost it about 3,000=92 lower about 6,= 000=92 AGL.=A0 Had I done the normal Chins Arrival, I would have descended = into the icing layer over the Cascade Mountains and expected to hold altitu= de in the middle of the icing for 10 minutes.=A0 This would not have been p= retty. =A0I would have refused the descent and done a 180 if needed before = I entered the reported icing altitude over the Cascades.=A0 In my experienc= e ATC is always very accommodating.=A0 =A0

=A0

As far as engine failure is concerned, if you are departing to th= e south, Renton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles and the I-5 is just off = your left.=A0 Departing to the north, keep the engine operational.

=A0

Fly Safely and request the safest way.=A0

=A0

Carl Cadwell

=A0

F= rom: cwfmd@yahoo.com [mailto:cwfmd@yahoo= .com]
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:03 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Su= bject: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parki= ng

=A0

I recomm= end Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington as Boeing Field. Ther= e's lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Everett factory whe= re they are built.=A0Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO there=A0with rental = car.

=A0

=A0I hav= e had bad luck with Boeing Field on several visits. The tower=A0may try to = assign the short 13L=A0runway while you are on short=A0final. This induced = a go around, in the 4P,=A0with high=A0terrain just to the left. On climb ou= t I had to turn close to 13R for comfortable terrain clearance.

=A0=A0On= another trip I had the strange and unique=A0experience of being cleared in= to class B, but then "uncleared"(on left downwind for 13)=A0when = I crossed an airspace boundary into class D, then immediately back into cla= ss B. (This can happen laterally and vertically on left downwind!)=A0I had = to call approach later on the ground,=A0to hear that this had happened, but= I never could get the guy to explain how the pilot was to know the class B= clearance was canceled by flightpath, without notice by radio.

=A0Many = issues are induced by the simultaneous approaches by airliners into SeaTac = about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle between the rapidly rising terra= in and the often low clouds of the marine layer. On westbound departures wh= ich are away from the higher terrain, tower may assign very low altitude re= strictions over the congested urban city=A0to help avoid setting off the TC= AS go around alarms on the ILS airliners into SeaTac. At least in the 4P, t= his sets you up with no reasonable place to land and no altitude buffer in = case of single engine failure on takeoff.

=A0If yo= u decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot the approach to the long runwa= y. Study the terrain and nuances of the congested Class B airspace relative= to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to Paine:)

Safe tra= vels

Bill Mil= ler

<= p>

=A0


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