X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:35:43 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm21.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.84] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with SMTP id 5634858 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 11:10:15 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.84; envelope-from=cwfmd@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.49] by nm21.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2012 15:09:40 -0000 Received: from [209.191.108.96] by tm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2012 15:09:40 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.111] by t3.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2012 15:09:40 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2012 15:09:40 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 228576.52195.bm@omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 35480 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jul 2012 15:09:39 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Eml7K1+kZeCN7rLMlY+S9zR7H8pkCvBTAQltMfuKBL+0wqG+WCriGhY72so+12p65ApljHaOTz3Ovp+O3LP9qX73HFcfGI8PlcclAWiJgTmc5HDxqrEjcx8cbeQj0nkS/qodKToKxT2YDWNWNF4llfgyO+p5AG9ZobiTbPbSQb4=; X-YMail-OSG: xHUA3s4VM1n5tfM9v_P5S_cnUvtW8opCcc3Kj_Kj9SCI06y D9mYLNGmCphYoZ.LPu4x_4poCi6sUM1tRwtttDjnds1_pstjbO0y9phhSnOh wf8zpzD40YwOe38OW9_EzmFPn3o_eDm5iZVy.dw4CvfrwuasCLznBqGHN5nR _584Mfz0_yVsBtoUHCqmTPxzcyZWjAkmd6Y6XSPvUr3qlZUVk5VcQJoTpTA4 b9HKZVjYVYVlXtfGAHiNN5InjnaQa2UrYFBiZRbBOMUV4RSTO_mFCcuGlhHN m64GNOf_suvhxlVE.qUEMMowPS2K7eruRMafecK6z2pLT8Ig7RuufmX7jlOO 50t4b9cNzs3Py7FRh01cXp6poa8PtUm_5Z6hV9C2HqPg3iBmSknCyLEku6.1 HUsZLE.eIGcEy5Rah3xJZ9ZRt8PXzhCj_PA4SUjgy4KEL.e32YhYMEg1N6VO Qly5GmDGC0DCWV6_R4EXDJg13Qrc30mF.yojhQ0W9rX6EB555ZXmbrq2vrGE - Received: from [98.196.182.216] by web184411.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:09:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.118.349524 X-Original-Message-ID: <1341241779.1450.YahooMailClassic@web184411.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 08:09:39 -0700 (PDT) From: cwfmd@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net, Carl Cadwell In-Reply-To: <6B7AC3365069094AACCD5B59ED07DB40010B1648@DEWEY2.Cadwell.cadwell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1996725278-24051721-1341241779=:1450" --1996725278-24051721-1341241779=:1450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, Carl. =C2=A0IFR, good planning, and experience with the locals, solves most of th= ese issues. On several of these flights the airplane was restricted to VFR,= including an Eclipse Jet.=C2=A0 VFR procedures can=C2=A0became much more c= omplex, than IFR. =C2=A0 Thanks --- On Mon, 7/2/12, Carl Cadwell wrote: From: Carl Cadwell Subject: RE: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and par= king To: cwfmd@yahoo.com, lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 9:45 AM I understand what Bill is saying although have never experienced this situa= tion.=C2=A0 I fly frequently to the Seattle area.=C2=A0 Paine Field in Ever= ett is 10 miles further to the U of Washington than is Boeing Field.=C2=A0 = 10 miles in Seattle traffic can be an easy 10 minutes or a hard hour longer= .=C2=A0 I will fly to Boeing Field every time and have never had any troubl= e in the IVP or the Epic LT.=C2=A0 Park at Aeroflight to avoid the $50 ramp= fee at Galvin ($0 at Aeroflight).=C2=A0 I always go in IFR and there is no= hassle and no changing runways at the last moment.=C2=A0 Even the shorter = parallel runway at Boeing is 3700=E2=80=99.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and step climb you coming out of Boei= ng to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart at rush hour.=C2=A0 It is never lo= ng enough to have any trouble reaching cruise altitude before the Cascade m= ountain range to the East.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0If there is a concern about ic= ing in the climb, you can request an uninterrupted climb to cruise in your = remarks section of the flight plan. This has worked the few times I have re= quested this safety consideration.=C2=A0 Another option is to request a cli= mb to the west to cruise altitude and then a turn to the East.=C2=A0 I have= never had to do this and never wished that I had done it.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to cross the Cascades to my home ba= se in Eastern Washington.=C2=A0 This is usually above the icing over the Ca= scade Mountains which is usually around FL 080 to FL 120.=20 =C2=A0 IF you are arriving into the Seattle area from the East and icing is report= ed in the decent, you can request a Puget Sound Letdown which will hold you= high until you are clear of the Cascades to the East and then have a rapid= uninterrupted descent to the warm air below.=C2=A0 I have done this once i= n all the years I have flown to Seattle and put on =C2=BD=E2=80=9D ice in 2= ,000=E2=80=99 descending at 2000 fpm and then lost it about 3,000=E2=80=99 = lower about 6,000=E2=80=99 AGL.=C2=A0 Had I done the normal Chins Arrival, = I would have descended into the icing layer over the Cascade Mountains and = expected to hold altitude in the middle of the icing for 10 minutes.=C2=A0 = This would not have been pretty. =C2=A0I would have refused the descent and= done a 180 if needed before I entered the reported icing altitude over the= Cascades.=C2=A0 In my experience ATC is always very accommodating.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As far as engine failure is concerned, if you are departing to the south, R= enton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles and the I-5 is just off your left.= =C2=A0 Departing to the north, keep the engine operational.=20 =C2=A0 Fly Safely and request the safest way.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Carl Cadwell =C2=A0 From: cwfmd@yahoo.com [mailto:cwfmd@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:03 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking =C2=A0 I recommend Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington as Boeing Field. = There's lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Everett factory whe= re they are built.=C2=A0Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO there=C2=A0with renta= l car. =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have had bad luck with Boeing Field on several visits. The tower=C2= =A0may try to assign the short 13L=C2=A0runway while you are on short=C2=A0= final. This induced a go around, in the 4P,=C2=A0with high=C2=A0terrain jus= t to the left. On climb out I had to turn close to 13R for comfortable terr= ain clearance. =C2=A0=C2=A0On another trip I had the strange and unique=C2=A0experience of= being cleared into class B, but then "uncleared"(on left downwind for 13)= =C2=A0when I crossed an airspace boundary into class D, then immediately ba= ck into class B. (This can happen laterally and vertically on left downwind= !)=C2=A0I had to call approach later on the ground,=C2=A0to hear that this = had happened, but I never could get the guy to explain how the pilot was to= know the class B clearance was canceled by flightpath, without notice by r= adio. =C2=A0Many issues are induced by the simultaneous approaches by airliners i= nto SeaTac about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle between the rapidly r= ising terrain and the often low clouds of the marine layer. On westbound de= partures which are away from the higher terrain, tower may assign very low = altitude restrictions over the congested urban city=C2=A0to help avoid sett= ing off the TCAS go around alarms on the ILS airliners into SeaTac. At leas= t in the 4P, this sets you up with no reasonable place to land and no altit= ude buffer in case of single engine failure on takeoff. =C2=A0If you decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot the approach to the= long runway. Study the terrain and nuances of the congested Class B airspa= ce relative to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to Paine:) Safe travels Bill Miller =C2=A0 --1996725278-24051721-1341241779=:1450 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree, Carl.
 IFR, good planning, and experience with the locals, solves most = of these issues. On several of these flights the airplane was restricted to= VFR, including an Eclipse Jet.  VFR procedures can became much m= ore complex, than IFR.
 
Thanks

--- On Mon, 7/2/12, Carl Cadwell <CarlC@cadwell= .com> wrote:

From: Carl Cadwell <CarlC@cadwell.com>
S= ubject: RE: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and park= ing
To: cwfmd@yahoo.com, lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Monday, July 2, = 2012, 9:45 AM

I understand what Bill is saying although = have never experienced this situation.  I fly frequently to the Seattl= e area.  Paine Field in Everett is 10 miles further to the U of Washin= gton than is Boeing Field.  10 miles in Seattle traffic can be an easy= 10 minutes or a hard hour longer.  I will fly to Boeing Field every t= ime and have never had any trouble in the IVP or the Epic LT.  Park at= Aeroflight to avoid the $50 ramp fee at Galvin ($0 at Aeroflight).  I= always go in IFR and there is no hassle and no changing runways at the las= t moment.  Even the shorter parallel runway at Boeing is 3700=E2=80=99= . 

 

ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and = step climb you coming out of Boeing to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart a= t rush hour.  It is never long enough to have any trouble reaching cru= ise altitude before the Cascade mountain range to the East.   &nb= sp;If there is a concern about icing in the climb, you can request an unint= errupted climb to cruise in your remarks section of the flight plan. This h= as worked the few times I have requested this safety consideration.  A= nother option is to request a climb to the west to cruise altitude and then= a turn to the East.  I have never had to do this and never wished tha= t I had done it. 

 

In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to= cross the Cascades to my home base in Eastern Washington.  This is us= ually above the icing over the Cascade Mountains which is usually around FL= 080 to FL 120.

 

IF you are arriving into the Seattle area = from the East and icing is reported in the decent, you can request a Puget = Sound Letdown which will hold you high until you are clear of the Cascades = to the East and then have a rapid uninterrupted descent to the warm air bel= ow.  I have done this once in all the years I have flown to Seattle an= d put on =C2=BD=E2=80=9D ice in 2,000=E2=80=99 descending at 2000 fpm and t= hen lost it about 3,000=E2=80=99 lower about 6,000=E2=80=99 AGL.  Had = I done the normal Chins Arrival, I would have descended into the icing laye= r over the Cascade Mountains and expected to hold altitude in the middle of= the icing for 10 minutes.  This would not have been pretty.  I w= ould have refused the descent and done a 180 if needed before I entered the= reported icing altitude over the Cascades.  In my experience ATC is a= lways very accommodating.   

 

As far as engine failure is concerned, if = you are departing to the south, Renton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles a= nd the I-5 is just off your left.  Departing to the north, keep the en= gine operational.

 

Fly Safely and request the safest way.&nbs= p;

 

Carl Cadwell

 

I recommend Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington = as Boeing Field. There's lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Ev= erett factory where they are built. Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO = there with rental car.

 

 I have had bad luck with Boeing Field on several vis= its. The tower may try to assign the short 13L runway while you a= re on short final. This induced a go around, in the 4P, with high=  terrain just to the left. On climb out I had to turn close to 13R for= comfortable terrain clearance.

  On another trip I had the strange and unique&n= bsp;experience of being cleared into class B, but then "uncleared"(on left = downwind for 13) when I crossed an airspace boundary into class D, the= n immediately back into class B. (This can happen laterally and vertically = on left downwind!) I had to call approach later on the ground, to= hear that this had happened, but I never could get the guy to explain how = the pilot was to know the class B clearance was canceled by flightpath, wit= hout notice by radio.

 Many issues are induced by the simultaneous approach= es by airliners into SeaTac about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle betw= een the rapidly rising terrain and the often low clouds of the marine layer= . On westbound departures which are away from the higher terrain, tower may= assign very low altitude restrictions over the congested urban city t= o help avoid setting off the TCAS go around alarms on the ILS airliners int= o SeaTac. At least in the 4P, this sets you up with no reasonable place to = land and no altitude buffer in case of single engine failure on takeoff.

 If you decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot th= e approach to the long runway. Study the terrain and nuances of the congest= ed Class B airspace relative to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to Paine:)=

Safe travels

Bill Miller

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