X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:34:44 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from DEWEY2.Cadwell.cadwell.com ([207.254.33.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTP id 5634832 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 10:46:20 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.254.33.66; envelope-from=CarlC@cadwell.com X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD5861.5B7631F8" Subject: RE: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking X-Original-Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:45:42 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <6B7AC3365069094AACCD5B59ED07DB40010B1648@DEWEY2.Cadwell.cadwell.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and parking Thread-Index: Ac1YWfGgjOMBfuHkQKKwyVviC1YdGQ== From: "Carl Cadwell" X-Original-To: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD5861.5B7631F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand what Bill is saying although have never experienced this = situation. I fly frequently to the Seattle area. Paine Field in = Everett is 10 miles further to the U of Washington than is Boeing Field. = 10 miles in Seattle traffic can be an easy 10 minutes or a hard hour = longer. I will fly to Boeing Field every time and have never had any = trouble in the IVP or the Epic LT. Park at Aeroflight to avoid the $50 = ramp fee at Galvin ($0 at Aeroflight). I always go in IFR and there is = no hassle and no changing runways at the last moment. Even the shorter = parallel runway at Boeing is 3700'. =20 =20 ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and step climb you coming out of = Boeing to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart at rush hour. It is never = long enough to have any trouble reaching cruise altitude before the = Cascade mountain range to the East. If there is a concern about icing = in the climb, you can request an uninterrupted climb to cruise in your = remarks section of the flight plan. This has worked the few times I have = requested this safety consideration. Another option is to request a = climb to the west to cruise altitude and then a turn to the East. I = have never had to do this and never wished that I had done it. =20 =20 In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to cross the Cascades to my home = base in Eastern Washington. This is usually above the icing over the = Cascade Mountains which is usually around FL 080 to FL 120.=20 =20 IF you are arriving into the Seattle area from the East and icing is = reported in the decent, you can request a Puget Sound Letdown which will = hold you high until you are clear of the Cascades to the East and then = have a rapid uninterrupted descent to the warm air below. I have done = this once in all the years I have flown to Seattle and put on =BD" ice = in 2,000' descending at 2000 fpm and then lost it about 3,000' lower = about 6,000' AGL. Had I done the normal Chins Arrival, I would have = descended into the icing layer over the Cascade Mountains and expected = to hold altitude in the middle of the icing for 10 minutes. This would = not have been pretty. I would have refused the descent and done a 180 = if needed before I entered the reported icing altitude over the = Cascades. In my experience ATC is always very accommodating. =20 =20 As far as engine failure is concerned, if you are departing to the = south, Renton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles and the I-5 is just off = your left. Departing to the north, keep the engine operational.=20 =20 Fly Safely and request the safest way. =20 =20 Carl Cadwell =20 From: cwfmd@yahoo.com [mailto:cwfmd@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:03 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and = parking =20 I recommend Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington as Boeing = Field. There's lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Everett = factory where they are built. Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO there with = rental car. =20 I have had bad luck with Boeing Field on several visits. The tower may = try to assign the short 13L runway while you are on short final. This = induced a go around, in the 4P, with high terrain just to the left. On = climb out I had to turn close to 13R for comfortable terrain clearance. On another trip I had the strange and unique experience of being = cleared into class B, but then "uncleared"(on left downwind for 13) when = I crossed an airspace boundary into class D, then immediately back into = class B. (This can happen laterally and vertically on left downwind!) I = had to call approach later on the ground, to hear that this had = happened, but I never could get the guy to explain how the pilot was to = know the class B clearance was canceled by flightpath, without notice by = radio. Many issues are induced by the simultaneous approaches by airliners = into SeaTac about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle between the = rapidly rising terrain and the often low clouds of the marine layer. On = westbound departures which are away from the higher terrain, tower may = assign very low altitude restrictions over the congested urban city to = help avoid setting off the TCAS go around alarms on the ILS airliners = into SeaTac. At least in the 4P, this sets you up with no reasonable = place to land and no altitude buffer in case of single engine failure on = takeoff. If you decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot the approach to the = long runway. Study the terrain and nuances of the congested Class B = airspace relative to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to Paine:) Safe travels Bill Miller =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD5861.5B7631F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I understand what Bill is saying although have never experienced this = situation.  I fly frequently to the Seattle area.  Paine Field = in Everett is 10 miles further to the U of Washington than is Boeing = Field.  10 miles in Seattle traffic can be an easy 10 minutes or a = hard hour longer.  I will fly to Boeing Field every time and have = never had any trouble in the IVP or the Epic LT.  Park at = Aeroflight to avoid the $50 ramp fee at Galvin ($0 at Aeroflight).  = I always go in IFR and there is no hassle and no changing runways at the = last moment.  Even the shorter parallel runway at Boeing is = 3700’. 

 

ATC out of Seattle does hold you down and step climb you coming out = of Boeing to clear SeaTac traffic if you depart at rush hour.  It = is never long enough to have any trouble reaching cruise altitude before = the Cascade mountain range to the East.    If there is a = concern about icing in the climb, you can request an uninterrupted climb = to cruise in your remarks section of the flight plan. This has worked = the few times I have requested this safety consideration.  Another = option is to request a climb to the west to cruise altitude and then a = turn to the East.  I have never had to do this and never wished = that I had done it. 

 

In the IVP I typically filed for FL 150 to cross the Cascades to my = home base in Eastern Washington.  This is usually above the icing = over the Cascade Mountains which is usually around FL 080 to FL 120. =

 

IF you are arriving into the Seattle area from the East and icing is = reported in the decent, you can request a Puget Sound Letdown which will = hold you high until you are clear of the Cascades to the East and then = have a rapid uninterrupted descent to the warm air below.  I have = done this once in all the years I have flown to Seattle and put on = ½” ice in 2,000’ descending at 2000 fpm and then lost = it about 3,000’ lower about 6,000’ AGL.  Had I done the = normal Chins Arrival, I would have descended into the icing layer over = the Cascade Mountains and expected to hold altitude in the middle of the = icing for 10 minutes.  This would not have been pretty.  I = would have refused the descent and done a 180 if needed before I entered = the reported icing altitude over the Cascades.  In my experience = ATC is always very accommodating.   

 

As far as engine failure is concerned, if you are departing to the = south, Renton Field and Seatac are about 5 miles and the I-5 is just off = your left.  Departing to the north, keep the engine operational. =

 

Fly Safely and request the safest way. 

 

Carl Cadwell

 

From:= = cwfmd@yahoo.com [mailto:cwfmd@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, July = 01, 2012 6:03 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: = Paine Field vs Boeing Re: Recommendations for airports and = parking

 

 =

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD5861.5B7631F8--

I recommend = Paine Field. It's as close to U of Washington as Boeing Field. There's = lots of new airliners to look at as well as the Everett factory where = they are built. Castle & Cooke was a nice FBO there with = rental car.

 

 I have = had bad luck with Boeing Field on several visits. The tower may try = to assign the short 13L runway while you are on short final. = This induced a go around, in the 4P, with high terrain just to = the left. On climb out I had to turn close to 13R for comfortable = terrain clearance.

  O= n another trip I had the strange and unique experience of being = cleared into class B, but then "uncleared"(on left downwind = for 13) when I crossed an airspace boundary into class D, then = immediately back into class B. (This can happen laterally and vertically = on left downwind!) I had to call approach later on the = ground, to hear that this had happened, but I never could get the = guy to explain how the pilot was to know the class B clearance was = canceled by flightpath, without notice by = radio.

 Many = issues are induced by the simultaneous approaches by airliners into = SeaTac about 4-5 nm south. Its threading a needle between the rapidly = rising terrain and the often low clouds of the marine layer. On = westbound departures which are away from the higher terrain, tower may = assign very low altitude restrictions over the congested urban = city to help avoid setting off the TCAS go around alarms on the ILS = airliners into SeaTac. At least in the 4P, this sets you up with no = reasonable place to land and no altitude buffer in case of single engine = failure on takeoff.

 If you = decide to take this on, file IFR and shoot the approach to the long = runway. Study the terrain and nuances of the congested Class B airspace = relative to the terrain. Avoid the pain-- go to = Paine:)

Safe = travels

Bill = Miller