X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:19:57 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTP id 5625580 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:56:25 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EOovP0W0MACmg8CvSaW+WE01VrxszX7B80iY/kopTW18h1eW1j818qgdt5gA6Rgq; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [70.105.247.254] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1SjMsX-0002As-8M for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:55:49 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-335--548987574 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: New TSIO 550-X break in - progress made! X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:55:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da94099c4a2d2f9051b15b26461b5993a2254350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 70.105.247.254 --Apple-Mail-335--548987574 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Not sure what I'm looking at re: the silicone. I don't know what the intent was. I know I don't have it and I have = good cooling. What is the theory? On Jun 25, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Bob Rickard wrote: Gents- Seems like we have this resolved. Thank you to all who responded, = especially George Braly. For reference: I was loath to run the CHT's above 390. I was worried that I had some = bad setup somewhere (timing, fuel flow, MAP, baffling) that was causing = higher temps than I was comfortable flying with. The guys at BPA = (backed up by the TCM manual and aircraft operating handbook) say that = continuous operation below 420 degrees is just fine. Not forever, but = breaking in an engine in the summer means that higher than normal = operating temps (I was used to 360-380 max in a full power climb) are = ok. Quote "if you stay below 420 you are not hurting a thing, and in = fact we want those higher temps and pressures during break in to seal = the rings good". =20 That assumes of course that some other bad combustion and/or timing = events are not happening. I did find out that the engine was timed a = bit too far advanced. The motor was built with 7.5 : 1 compression = pistons, and we retimed the motor twice with 2 different methods to make = sure each mag was at 24 degrees BTDC (indications were that they were = about 26 AND 25). I found out from George B that if you have your motor = built with 8.5:1 pistons, 21.5 degrees BTDC is the correct timing. After assuring that the timing was correct and all baffling was tight, = flew again today. Full power WOT/ROP climb all the way to FL220 with = max CHT recorded as 398 (see attached photo 1). At level off, motor was = fine, cooled down nicely and ran strong at lower power settings and when = LOP. A follow up call with BPA guys confirms this is totally = acceptable. Thoughts? Last question for guys that have IV-P's - see attached photo of cyl 5 = and 6 with silicone on the front of the fins. Do you guys recommend = this? I have 2 local mechanics (neither IV-P owners, which is why I am = going to the source) that adamantly disagree, one says its horrible and = the other says its necessary. Can you respond with pictures? I have = all of the other recommended IV-P mods but am not sure about this one. = I will accept any and all photos of IV-P baffling that you want to send = to me direct. Greatly appreciated to compare my setup with you experts = out there. Again thanks for the responses that got me thru the break-in insanity. = Plan is to tweak a few settings (MAP, max RPM, min oil pressure), and do = a full up GAMI test tomorrow=85. Bob Rickard On Jun 25, 2012, at 7:27 AM, George Braly wrote: > =20 > >> soon as throttle pushed in, cyl's 5 and 6 climb at about 1 degree = per second - power always retarded not to exceed 390 and cool down in = the 350-360 range before trying to push up power again.<< > =20 > Bob, > =20 > When I read that statement - - I stopped what I was doing (preparing = a presentation for the ASTM in connection with the approval of the = G100UL=99 avgas ) - - > In order to follow up. > =20 > THIS IS IMPORTANT: There are VERY FEW THINGS IN AN AIRCRAFT PISTON = ENGINE THAT CAN CAUSE AN OPERATING CYLINDER CHT TO SUDDENLY BEGIN TO = INCREASE AT A RATE OF 1 DEGREE / SECOND ( 360 TO 390 IN 30 SECONDS, FOR = EXAMPLE ) - - - except: > =20 > 1) Outright pre-ignition; or, > 2) Simulated outright-pre-ignition due to improperly advanced = timing. > =20 > MERE DETONATION - - EVEN MEDIUM TO HEAVY DETONATION - - will not do = that.=20 > =20 > Amazingly, if you have caught and limited the CHT rise and managed = that at levels under about 420 dF, as you appear to have done - - = then you have likely NOT done any harm to the cylinders. But a = borescope is in order. And change the spark plugs in those two = cylinders. The plugs can be damaged from those kinds of combustion = events. > =20 > I have a lot of old and a lot of more recent data that documents all = of the statements made, above. =20 > =20 > If you will forward to me the engine data downloads from those flights = I will try to take a look at them and I can tell you what was going on. > =20 > Call me if you want to. I might have some suggestions for you to = allow you to proceed to get your aircraft flying again comfortably. = However - - getting me the engine download data is the most important = thing you can do. > =20 > Regards, George > =20 > > George W. Braly > Head of Engineering > GAMI > gwbraly@gami.com > =20 > toll-free: 888-359-4264 > ph: 580-436-4833 x1009 > cell:580-421-5645 > fx: 580-436-6622 > =20 > www.gami.com > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Jun 20, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Bob Rickard wrote: > =20 > IV-P non turbine Fellow Pilots: > =20 > =20 > First flight - one pattern only - Max MAP was set too low, low fuel = flow - fixed. > Next flight - 10 minutes - Cylinders 5 and 6 temps run away hot at = 38.5 MAP and 45gph. Must retard throttle to less than 25gph (25ish MAP) = to keep under control. > Third flight - after checking baffling for hours and scratching head = - same deal. Fly for 1 hour full rich at low power settings. Motor = very smooth and happy at low settings, but as soon as throttle pushed = in, cyl's 5 and 6 climb at about 1 degree per second - power always = retarded not to exceed 390 and cool down in the 350-360 range before = trying to push up power again. > Fourth flight - today - a 2.3. Takeoff WOT and full rich. Can't get = above 3000' agl before having to pull power for cal 5 and 6. Pull power = to 25gph/25 MAP/Full rich and slowly climb to 10.5k MSL. Fly there for = a while, cylinders all look great in the 340-350 range. After an hour, = try full power climb, have to stop within 1500' of climb. So then I = leveled out, and set my typical speed cruise LOP mode to try something = different - 34MAP, 2500 RPM, 18-19 gph. Motor is very happy. All EGT's = normal (actually less than previous engine by almost 100 deg), CHT's all = between 340-365. I climb with this setting to 16.5 and cruise for = another hour, no problem. Return to base, set full rich/2700 rpm, and = land normally. At retarded power settings in the pattern, motor stays = cool and happy. > =20 > So what to look at? New motor mounts make the engine sit noticeably = lower in the cowl, and we are checking the rear baffling to make sure = there is a good seal, but would that affect the front 2 cylinders (5 and = 6)? Every other indication (including the other 4 cylinder temps) are = totally normal. Any other suggestions out there to look for? =20 > =20 > Appreciate your experience > =20 > =20 > Bob Rickard >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 Bob Rickard President, Rickard Consulting Group, Inc. r.rickard@rcginc-us.com --Apple-Mail-335--548987574 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Not = sure what I'm looking at re: the silicone.
I don't know what the = intent was.   I know I don't have it and I have good = cooling.
What is the theory?

On Jun = 25, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Bob Rickard wrote:


That assumes of course that some = other bad combustion and/or timing events are not happening.  I did = find out that the engine was timed a bit too far advanced.  The = motor was built with 7.5 : 1 compression pistons, and we retimed the = motor twice with 2 different methods to make sure each mag was at 24 = degrees BTDC (indications were that they were about 26 AND 25).  I = found out from George B that if you have your motor built with 8.5:1 = pistons, 21.5 degrees BTDC is the correct = timing.

After assuring that the timing was = correct and all baffling was tight, flew again today.  Full power = WOT/ROP climb all the way to FL220 with max CHT recorded as 398 (see = attached photo 1).  At level off, motor was fine, cooled down = nicely and ran strong at lower power settings and when LOP.  A = follow up call with BPA guys confirms this is totally acceptable. =  Thoughts?

Last question for guys that = have IV-P's - see attached photo of cyl 5 and 6 with silicone on the = front of the fins.  Do you guys recommend this?  I have 2 = local mechanics (neither IV-P owners, which is why I am going to the = source) that adamantly disagree, one says its horrible and the other = says its necessary.  Can you respond with pictures?  I have = all of the other recommended IV-P mods but am not sure about this one. =  I will accept any and all photos of IV-P baffling that you want to = send to me direct.  Greatly appreciated to compare my setup with = you experts out there.

Again thanks for the = responses that got me thru the break-in insanity.  Plan is to tweak = a few settings (MAP, max RPM, min oil pressure), and do a full up GAMI = test tomorrow=85.

Bob = Rickard

 <IMG_0447.jpeg><= span><IMG_0450.jpeg><IMG_0451.jpeg>
<= div>
On Jun 25, 2012, at 7:27 AM, George Braly = wrote:

 
 soon = as throttle pushed in, cyl's 5 and 6 climb at about 1 degree per second = - power always retarded not to exceed 390 and cool down in the 350-360 = range before trying to push up power again.<<
 
 
When I read = that statement - -  I stopped what I was doing (preparing a = presentation for the ASTM in connection with the approval of the G100UL=99= avgas ) - -
In order to follow up.
THIS IS IMPORTANT:  There are VERY FEW THINGS = IN AN AIRCRAFT PISTON ENGINE THAT CAN CAUSE AN OPERATING CYLINDER =  CHT TO SUDDENLY BEGIN TO INCREASE AT A RATE OF 1 DEGREE / SECOND ( = 360 TO 390 IN 30 SECONDS,  FOR EXAMPLE )   - - -  = except:
 
1)      Outright pre-ignition; = or,
2) Simulated outright-pre-ignition due = to improperly advanced timing.
MERE DETONATION - - EVEN MEDIUM TO HEAVY DETONATION = - - will not do that. 
Amazingly,  if you have caught and limited the = CHT rise and managed that at levels under about 420 dF,  as you = appear to have done - -   then you have likely  NOT done = any harm to the cylinders.  But a borescope is in order.  And = change the spark plugs in those two cylinders.  The plugs can be = damaged from those kinds of combustion = events.
 
I have a lot = of old and a lot of more recent data that documents all of the = statements made, above.    
If you will forward to me the engine data downloads = from those flights I will try to take a look at them and I can tell you = what was going on.
 
Call me if = you want to.  I might have some suggestions for you to allow you to =  proceed to get your aircraft flying again comfortably.   = However - - getting me the engine download data is the most important = thing you can do.
 
George W. = Braly
Head of Engineering
 
On Jun 20, 2012, at 7:15 = PM, Bob Rickard wrote:
IV-P non turbine Fellow = Pilots:
First flight - = one pattern only - Max MAP was set too low, low fuel flow - = fixed.
Next flight - = 10 minutes - Cylinders 5 and 6 temps run away hot at 38.5 MAP and 45gph. =  Must retard throttle to less than 25gph (25ish MAP) to keep under = control.
Third flight =  - after checking baffling for hours and scratching head - same = deal.  Fly for 1 hour full rich at low power settings.  Motor = very smooth and happy at low settings, but as soon as throttle pushed = in, cyl's 5 and 6 climb at about 1 degree per second - power always = retarded not to exceed 390 and cool down in the 350-360 range before = trying to push up power = again.
Fourth flight = - today - a 2.3.  Takeoff WOT and full rich.  Can't get above = 3000' agl before having to pull power for cal 5 and 6.  Pull power = to 25gph/25 MAP/Full rich and slowly climb to 10.5k MSL.  Fly there = for a while, cylinders all look great in the 340-350 range.  After = an hour, try full power climb, have to stop within 1500' of climb. =  So then I leveled out, and set my typical speed cruise LOP mode to = try something different - 34MAP, 2500 RPM, 18-19 gph.  Motor is = very happy.  All EGT's normal (actually less than previous engine = by almost 100 deg), CHT's all between 340-365.  I climb with this = setting to 16.5 and cruise for another hour, no problem.  Return to = base, set full rich/2700 rpm, and land normally.  At retarded power = settings in the pattern, motor stays cool and = happy.
So what to = look at?  New motor mounts make the engine sit noticeably lower in = the cowl, and we are checking the rear baffling to make sure there is a = good seal, but would that affect the front 2 cylinders (5 and 6)? =  Every other indication (including the other 4 cylinder temps) are = totally normal.  Any other suggestions out there to look for? =  
Appreciate = your experience
 
 
Bob = Rickard 
 
<RCG Logo for Email.jpg>

Bob Rickard
President, = Rickard Consulting Group, Inc.
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