X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:31:53 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTP id 5532976 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 May 2012 11:06:20 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.32; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 8cwl1j0031ZMdJ4A3f5jdP; Fri, 11 May 2012 15:05:43 +0000 Received: from Legent ([76.104.242.96]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 8f5f1j00225W5K88cf5iL3; Fri, 11 May 2012 15:05:43 +0000 From: "John Hafen" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 X-Original-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 08:05:42 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <010c01cd2f87$895657c0$9c030740$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010D_01CD2F4C.DCFEABB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJy/PposmoXtImJzrztKYZaPi9Ql5V5FGFw Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01CD2F4C.DCFEABB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy: =20 No sarcasm implied. =20 =20 The Evo costs several times what an IVP does. =20 One would expect to get more of an airplane (more space, more speed, = more safety, etc.) for the additional amount paid. =20 And I=E2=80=99m serious about the Avanti recommendation. It=E2=80=99s a = great plane. I think you would like it. You should take one out for a = test ride. =20 Cheers, =20 John Hafen =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:05 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 sarcasm is the last refuge of the imaginatively bankrupt (C.C. " city = of hopes") =20 =20 _____ =20 From: John Hafen To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:18 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 Dr. Katz: =20 I=E2=80=99m glad your Evo is everything you thought it should be. As it = should be for several times the price of an IVP. =20 Have you taken a ride in an Avanti? I think you=E2=80=99d like it. =20 Cheers, =20 John Hafen =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 interesting comments John: =20 let me point out a few differences: I have seen many IV-P's in my career, I pay attention to all of them I even watched a guy in the dallas area hire a bunch of roofers build 4 = IV-P's in succesion until the FAA got him out of the business. Every one is a bit different and depending in who built it the quality = changes. =20 I spent 6 years with a mechanical engineer with expertise on aircraft = adhesives as my main builder assist with whom I spent the entire 6 years = doing my IV. =20 In contrast all Evo's are factory matched, built with factory = assistance, no chance of leaving the plastic protective layer in prior = to hysol (like one unfortunate mexican builder who did not know about = that layer and the airplane had to be trashed) all evos flying have been built (with one or 2 exceptions) with major = factory supervision power plant is usually a well know PW with years of experience and no = shock cooling or cylinder unexpected failures (or crankshaft separation) = or worries about who used LOP or ROP etc etc etc. the airplane is not demanding in landing (I land mine at 70 kts with no = trouble) so you wont see the deadly stall in turn to downwind scenarios. = =20 I wont hesitate to purchase an used Evo any time I will certainly hesitate a lot about buying an used IV-P for the above = reason but I have been wrong in my life so many times that I would not dare put = a cent in aviation. Flying is fun to me so far =20 and I have not been paid by the factory to say all this. =20 ak =20 _____ =20 From: John Barrett To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 Are we getting into a IVP vs Evolution war here? Not much future in = that, but I do recall when I started building my IVP two lifetimes ago, = that one of the major incentives was investment resale value. I was = going to be adding to my net worth by building this thing. =20 =20 Now it=E2=80=99s worth a lot less than I have in it. =20 =20 No reason to expect time and circumstances to be so unkind to Evo owners = but it is true that things rarely turn out just the way we think they = will when we get down the road. =20 =20 Regards, John Barrett =20 =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = bu131@swbell.net Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 9:46 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 You are so kind with your comments The original question was using an early eclipse vintage, certainly we = are not talking about gulfstreams here Keep in mind I have no idea of the cost of a vintage eclipse but I can = assure you that the resale value of an evo will beat the hell of = whatever investment you put on the initial choice And I hope you have a good day too Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _____ =20 From: "John Hafen" =20 Sender: "Lancair Mailing List" =20 Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:51:20 -0400 To: ReplyTo: "Lancair Mailing List" =20 Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 Well, perhaps because the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs. =20 Why don=E2=80=99t you try a Citation, or a Gulfstream? =20 John Hafen IVP 413AJ 400 Hours =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:13 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 why dont you try an evo i get 300+ to 310 at 28k usually run 28 gph and goes 1500 miles check flightaware for mine redmond dallas non stop with 15 kts tailwind landed with 40 gallons=20 the final a/c after the guys at lancair diddled with it and placed an = additional air cooler in front of the cowling works perfectly i even = have a fresh air modulator now beats the hell of the eclipse and the new garmin a/p works as magic = instead of the=20 *%#* sorcerer =20 _____ =20 From: "cwfmd@yahoo.com" To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 9:25 AM Subject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 =20 I tried flying without AC in the summer in Houston. You can dump the = door seal and get some relief above say 6000 feet, but I wouldn't do it = with passengers, ears etc. I also tried hot wx army vests with cooling. = Weird feeling too cold over your chest and your head's too hot.... The = desert cooler worked pretty good but iced up the windows... cool but IMC After about 3 years of this, we installed AC. We just made a deal on an early "vintage" Eclipse. We are using it in = an Aero Engineering course at Rice U. RVSM pending and Engine AD = restrict us to FL280 and I get 203 KEAS at 530 pph ~80gph IV-P 205 KIAS at FL240 and 75% 25 gph, So far Eclipse Air Conditioning = is not very good- same problem as Lancair with heat loading of cabin = with bleed air. We're considering a West coast trip next week from Houston via = Colorado/Wyoming to COE, Idaho, then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJC/MRY CA, and = back to TX. If you are headed along such a route and want to share a = VLJ, collect some Performance data, and stick time, for some gas money, = give me a holler. Bill Miller,=20 USN-TPS IP CFI ATP IV-P 440 hrs, IV-p 55 hrs, EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-Ch 11) =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01CD2F4C.DCFEABB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy:

 

No sarcasm implied.=C2=A0

 

The Evo costs several times what an IVP does.

 

One would expect to get more of an airplane (more space, more speed, = more safety, etc.) for the additional amount = paid.

 

And I=E2=80=99m serious about the Avanti recommendation.=C2=A0 = It=E2=80=99s a great plane.=C2=A0 I think you would like it.=C2=A0 You = should take one out for a test ride.

 

Cheers,

 

John Hafen

 

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:05 = PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats = EA50

 

sarcasm is the last refuge of the = imaginatively bankrupt (C.C.  " city  of = hopes")

 

 

<= div>
<= hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

F= rom: = John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net>
To:= lml@lancaironline.net =
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:18 AM
Subject: [LML] = Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

 

Dr. Katz:

 

I=E2=80=99m glad your Evo is everything you thought it should be.  = As it should be for several times the price of an IVP.

 

Have you taken a ride in an Avanti?  I think you=E2=80=99d like = it.

 

Cheers,

 

John Hafen

 

F= rom: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf Of Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Wednesday, = May 09, 2012 10:39 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats = EA50

 

interesting comments = John:

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>let me point out a few = differences:

I have seen many IV-P's in my career, I pay = attention to all of them

I even watched a guy in the dallas area hire a = bunch of roofers build 4 IV-P's in succesion until the FAA got him out = of the business.

Every one is a bit different and depending in who = built it the quality = changes.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>I spent 6 years with a mechanical engineer with = expertise on aircraft adhesives as my main builder assist with whom I = spent the entire 6 years doing my = IV.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>In contrast all Evo's are factory matched, built = with factory assistance, no chance of leaving the plastic protective = layer in prior to hysol (like one unfortunate mexican builder who did = not know about that layer and the airplane had to be = trashed)

all evos flying = have been built (with one or 2 exceptions) with major factory = supervision

power plant is usually a well know PW with years = of experience and no shock cooling or cylinder unexpected failures (or = crankshaft separation) or worries about who used LOP or ROP etc etc = etc.

the airplane is = not demanding in landing (I land mine at 70 kts with no trouble) so you = wont see the deadly stall in turn to downwind = scenarios. 

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>I wont hesitate to purchase an used Evo any = time

I will certainly = hesitate a lot about buying an used IV-P for the above = reason

but I have been = wrong in my life so many times that I would not dare put a cent in = aviation. Flying is fun to me so = far

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>and I have not been paid by the factory to say all = this.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>ak

 

<= div>
<= hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

F= rom: = John Barrett <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, = May 8, 2012 11:30 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in = IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

 

Are we getting into a IVP vs Evolution war here?  Not much future = in that, but I do recall when I started building my IVP two lifetimes = ago, that one of the major incentives was investment resale value.  = I was going to be adding to my net worth by building this thing.  =

 

Now it=E2=80=99s worth a lot less than I have in it. 

 

No reason to expect time and circumstances to be so unkind to Evo = owners but it is true that things rarely turn out just the way we think = they will when we get down the road.   

 

Regards,

John Barrett

 

 

 

F= rom: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = bu131@swbell.net
Sent: Monday, May 07, = 2012 9:46 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

=

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'>You are so kind with your comments
The original = question was using an early eclipse vintage, certainly we are not = talking about gulfstreams here
Keep in mind I have no idea of the = cost of a vintage eclipse but I can assure you that the resale value of = an evo will beat the hell of whatever investment you put on the initial = choice
And I hope you have a good day = too

Sent via = BlackBerry by AT&T

From: = "John Hafen" <j.hafen@comcast.net> =

Sender: "Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lancaironline.net> =

Date: Mon, = 07 May 2012 07:51:20 = -0400

ReplyTo: = "Lancair Mailing List" = <lml@lancaironline.net> =

Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still = beats EA50

 

=

Well, perhaps because the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs.

 

Why don=E2=80=99t you try a Citation, or a Gulfstream?

 

John Hafen

IVP 413AJ 400 Hours

 

F= rom: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:13 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

=

 

<= div>

why dont you try an = evo

i get 300+ to 310 at 28k usually run 28 gph and = goes 1500 miles

check flightaware for mine redmond dallas non stop = with 15 kts = tailwind

landed with 40 = gallons 

the final a/c after the guys at lancair diddled = with it and placed an additional air cooler in front of the cowling = works perfectly i even have a fresh air modulator = now

beats the hell of the eclipse and the new garmin = a/p works as magic instead of = the 

*%#* = sorcerer

 

=
<= hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

F= rom: = "cwfmd@yahoo.com" <cwfmd@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, May = 4, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P = still beats EA50

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'> 

I tried = flying without AC in the summer in Houston. You can dump the door seal = and get some relief above say 6000 feet, but I wouldn't do it with = passengers, ears etc. I also tried hot wx army vests with cooling. Weird = feeling too cold over your chest and your head's too hot.... The desert = cooler worked pretty good but iced up the windows... cool but = IMC
 After about 3 years of this, we installed AC.
 We = just made a deal on an early "vintage" Eclipse. We are using = it in an Aero Engineering course at Rice U. RVSM pending and Engine AD = restrict us to FL280 and I get 203 KEAS at 530 pph ~80gph
IV-P 205 = KIAS at FL240 and 75% 25 gph, So far Eclipse Air Conditioning is not = very good- same problem as Lancair with heat loading of cabin with bleed = air.
 We're considering a West coast trip next week from Houston = via Colorado/Wyoming to COE, Idaho, then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJC/MRY CA, = and back to TX. If you are headed along such a route and want to share a = VLJ, collect some Performance data, and stick time, for some gas money, = give me a holler.
Bill Miller,
USN-TPS IP CFI ATP
IV-P 440 = hrs, IV-p 55 hrs, EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-Ch = 11)

 

 

 

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