Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #61329
From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:56:10 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>

Chris,
 
You refer to a CZZ configuration but I don't find any such CZZ reference in the Oildyne spec sheet. Can you elaborate ?
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

This first video shows the stock LB configuration operating normally while going through multiple extreme thermal cycles both retracted and extended.  Note that the non-pressurized side remains at zero pressure throughout the entire test.   The pump responds, hot or cold, retracted or extended.
This second video shows the CZZ configuration used on the Legacy which adds return springs to the LB spool (actually LD, in this case) and removes the back pressure feed in the return line.  This configuration is not compatible with the 320/360 hydraulic system.  As shown in the video, this configuration locks up.  Note that the both high and low sides rise and fall with temperature.  Once the pressure rises above the pressure switch set points, the pump cannot be engaged. 
Reverting the CZZ configuration back to the 320/360 configuration took about 10 minutes.
Once the 320/360 pump configuration incorporated the LB back pressure circuit, it became an incredibly reliable and trouble free part of the aircraft design.  It has tens, perhaps, hundreds of thousands of hours of trouble free service.  I gladly contributed 1,350 of those hours.
I am not advocating any ‘fix’ and certainly not any modification.  Quite the contrary, I have never found the stock LB configuration to need a fix.  I do advocate ensuring the proper configuration and proper adjustments are maintained. 
Over the years, I have helped many Lancair owners resolve hydraulic issues.   I have found assembly errors (reversed spool valve), bad poppet valves, pressure switch issues, both adjustment errors and failures, faulty relays, hydraulic cylinder issues, even leaking dump valves.  Not once was the problem tied to the pump design. 
I think it is a matter of maintenance philosophy.
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net

From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 11:02 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch


It's a matter of cost effectiveness. I'm still waiting for positive evidence of what exactly is causing the failure so your fix can be validated.
Again, I have come up with a fix that WILL fix that problem . . . for less than what it costs to "fix" the pump, not to mention down time . . . assuming that springs and vibration is what's causing the problem. But you have said that vibration can't do that ? ?
 
Your "fix" could be the answer but there is no way to know for sure what is inside a particular pump without a dissection because part numbers are not reliable.
 
I'm thinking the springs are the culprit but that needs to be demonstrated. The springs with the help of vibration are the only thing that I can think of that can move the spindle off it's end position against O-ring friction. I'm thinking that no springs and maybe harder O-rings could be the answer. That scenario makes sense to me.
 
You have the test rig you made up so why don't you simulate the supposed problem and implement the supposed fix and document for all what the "correct" answer is ?
Let us know if your approach WILL fix the problem.
 
I have already done that with my electric module.
 
Assuming the pump modification is a valid fix,
which is more cost effective, remove, dissect, re-assemble, replace the pump
or simply add the electric module using it's push-on connectors ?
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Wolfgang,
If a mechanic were to install a new cylinder on my plane using incorrect rings that subsequently led to oil consumption of 2 qt/hr, I could theoretically design a system that refills the sump to assure I don’t run out of oil during long flights.  The more customary approach would be to remove the cylinder and install the correct rings.
The ‘problem’ here is not that oil needs to be replenished.  The problem is the installation of incorrect parts.  The ‘fix’ is not to add a system to keep the sump replenished.  The fix is to use the correct rings.
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
 
 
From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch


Chris,
 
Life is complicated enough so when I fly, I like to enjoy it. Being a slave to the system like a cog in a flying machine is not my idea of "enjoyment". Don't get me wrong, I like getting into technicals up to my eyebrows, but I prefer to do that at my choosing, not while tending to a malfunction in flight. That's why I cane up with the gear module.
 
After you detailed the presence of springs in the pump to help center the spool and popets, I see that my original supposition that the spool is coming off it's end position is confirmed. It looks like the springs are in fact, capable of overcoming the friction of the O-rings. You keep measuring the forces in G's but that does not give us an actual force measurement that is what the springs are operating against.
 
It remains that some pump installations have the problem of the spool not maintaining the required position for safe flight operations. You have come up with many details that go toward esplaining the problem and a possible fix (take out the springs). I have come up with a module that WILL fix that problem.
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Wolfgang,
 
It is a sad day when removing a pump from the aircraft is too much effort to investigate an anomaly.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<We would all like to get at the root cause of the problem but, as yet, that hasn't happened. Likely because it's too much work to track down the actual cause and fix it. …>>
 
As aircraft owners we are responsible for knowing the configuration of the aircraft systems.  If something is out of the ordinary, investigate.  We know a lot about what the configuration should be and how it works and behaves.  We also know of configurations that do not work.  You may very well be holding the key to a new, as of yet, unidentified failure mode, but we may never know.
 
Wolfgang wrote: <<So far we only have a good plausible theory missing only demonstratable proof.>>
 
If my tire has a flat and I see a nail sticking through the side wall, I am rather confident in assuming the nail was the source of my leak.  Likewise, if I open up a lock-up prone pump and find return springs, I will have a high degree of confidence I have found the source of the problem.  Could there be a second cause?  Possibly, but as of yet, none have been documented.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<…original suspicion of the spool coming off it's end point (with the help of springs and airframe vibration) is in fact what's causing the problem.>>
 
Springs definitely - that is what they were designed to do.  Oildyne started adding springs to center the spool to the Legacy pump in ~2003.  Our system will eventually fail if these springs are installed. Fortunately the vast majority of our pumps do not have them.  If you have springs installed, simply remove them.
 
Vibration - the evidence says otherwise.  Measurements of various spool and pump combinations required from 13 g's (9 year old 'soft' o-ring) to 70 g's (new 'stiff' o-ring) to move the spool.  Aircraft vibration at the pump was measured to be +/- 0.1 g (flying) to +/-1.3 g (engine start). Vibration is not nearly sufficient to have any effect on the spool. 
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<If it takes that much force to move the spindle against the O-rings then those springs must be pretty darn strong. I find that dificult to accept.>>
The springs are very strong, 26 lb/in.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<Vibration levels can exceed 70 G's>>
See MIL-STD-810 for expected vibration levels in aircraft environments.
  
Wolfgang wrote:<<Yes, that would be easy . . . except . . . you can only override one pressure switch at a time or overload the system>>
I would still like to know how push buttons can overload anything.  And why would anyone want to override more than one at a time?
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<The items you cited are more a one-of condition ...>
I have never had a thermal lock up, yet I use pressure gauges and the momentary push buttons on a regular basis.  They were originally installed to deal with sticking VEP switches, but it is like getting a new tool.  After you have it, you can't imagine how you lived without out it.  I have already discussed the benefits of momentary switches not related to hydraulic lock-up.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<In the event of a problem you have to make sure you push the right switch.>>
One should label the push buttons appropriately.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<Are you saying that Oildyne is putting springs in the spool to center it when the pump is not running ?
Springs that are not documented in the Oildyne spec sheet ?>>
Recall that the Legacy pump configuration “CZZ” is proprietary to Lancair.  Companies generally don’t post proprietary materials on-line.
 
<<You seem to want to be "involved" in the anomalies of flight.>>
Not really.  I avoid them by thorough examination, no matter what it requires.
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
 
 




Subscribe (FEED) Subscribe (DIGEST) Subscribe (INDEX) Unsubscribe Mail to Listmaster